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You CAN audit your own work!

Discussion in 'ISO 19011 - Auditing Management Systems Guidelines' started by Andy Nichols, Oct 8, 2015.

  1. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Sad but it's very true.
     
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  2. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    In my organization, we have a team of internal auditors (with one representative for each department). Since each department has a representative, we ensure objectivity by cross-auditing (i.e. auditor will audit other department/s except where he/she is working). The team is headed by the company's Lead Auditor who prepares the audit program and audit schedule, assigns the auditors, monitors the closure of NCs, reports the results of the audit to top management and maintains audit records. When we had the audit of the internal audit process, two member auditors were assigned and audited the Lead Auditor (audit process owner). They were careful not to touch records they themselves prepared (e.g. audit checklists they used and audit reports they issued to other departments).

    Now, here's what just happened during our CB's audit. They raised an NC because, according to them, we failed to satisfy the requirement on objectivity and impartiality (9.2.2c). :(
     
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    You'll appeal the finding? What was the evidence presented? I'm guessing there was none...
     
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  4. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    This is the kind of BS that give ISO et. al. a bad name. As if you have time to deal with this nonsense. Good luck.
     
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  5. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    The CB auditors seem to hit clients with NC on the requirement of objectivity and impartiality (9.2.2c) of auditors. The ISO standard does not explicitly say "auditors cannot audit their own work". I got hit with this finding once while auditing to the new ISO9001 standard. It was a lesson well-learned.
     
  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    And I foresee a LOT of IATF clients being given an nc for not having competent trainers... (How DO you tell, as a CB auditor if the trainer was competent? This just fuels the silliness of CBs offering auditor training, like they know any better)
     
  7. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    It is a good thing that now whenever there is a response to a NC, the client have to verify the effectiveness of responses. At least that is a requirement in the TS16949.
     
  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    But the nc has to be fully objective in the first place!
     
  9. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    Its up to the auditor to discern the objectivity of an internal auditor. From my perspective, this is an easy way to find a nonconformance. My question is this: Why is it not explicitly stated in the new standard that auditor cannot audit their own work?
     
  10. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    My thought would be the impact to small organizations. The organizations where there are only a handful of people who wear multiple hats will more than likely result in people auditing their own work. Perhaps this is not explicitly stated in an effort to make the standard more feasible to small organizations.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
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  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Because, in micro organizations it's going to be very difficult for everyone not to have been involved in one process or another...
     
  12. hogheavenfarm

    hogheavenfarm Well-Known Member

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    Yes, exactly. While our organization is not micro, it is not very large either. As QM, I often wear many hats including shipping/receiving, purchasing, production work on the line in fabrication, production manager, trainer, material handling, and CAD/design for engineering. Our engineering department does the same. Everyone's job overlaps to a large extent. It is not feasible not to audit your own work in such a case, instead I utilize other methods to ensure my objectivity.
     
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  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    You cover your eyes when looking at your own work? :D
     
  14. hogheavenfarm

    hogheavenfarm Well-Known Member

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    On occasion I do get another set of eyes on things, when I can. I tend to be harder on myself than others though, so it seems to work, at least when measured by our outside customer audits. It is hard to avoid your own work when it is everywhere.
     
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  15. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    If the Internal audit is conducted to improve the system, the process owner. if trained as an internal auditor, will know where he pockets of problems are and highlight them in the internal audit report. I'd rather see a report that highlights a root cause rather than a "witch hunt" for petty nonconformance that does not get into the root cause of the system.
     
  16. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Furthermore, the CB auditor imposes that the internal auditor(s) who is/are assigned to audit the internal audit process must not audit other processes. If so, impartiality is compromised!:eek:
     
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  17. Steven Severt

    Steven Severt Member

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    This just became an issue in our organization. We have three facilities operating independently from one another in our company, and we are doing our 9001:2015 transition certification audits over this week and next week. We just got word back from our facility in Costa Mesa, CA that was audited this week that they had non-conformances regarding their internal auditing process. One thing that was mentioned by the auditor in the finding was that 'auditors shall not audit their own work', but this is no longer a requirement in the 2015 standard. *sigh*
     
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  18. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    I hope the auditor did not write a nonconformity to this obsolete requirement. If he did, he needs to stop - such nonconformitites can be disputed.
     
  19. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    If the auditor raised this issue against clause 9.2, asked him/her "Can you point me the exact statement that we failed to fulfill?" or just a simple "Where is the shall?"
     
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