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Which processes has to be included?

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Kranis, Jul 14, 2020.

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  1. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    If ISO 9001 is intended to satisfy customer, is it only for the customer of the organization? The customer that buys the organization's products/services? What about the internal customers? Note 1 of section 3.2.4 of ISO 9000, which is the normative reference of ISO 9001, (that means indispensable for application) stated that "A customer can be internal or external to the organization". Production and Sales (core processes) are internal customers of other departments like HR, IT, and Finance (support processes). As internal customers, they are also interested parties. They have needs and expectations that if not fulfilled will impact the ability of the organization to produce quality products (see clause 4.2). Then, clause 4.3 of the standard requires that "when determining this scope, the organization shall consider... the requirements of relevant interested parties". So, can an organization have a well functioning QMS if they are only concerned with the requirements of external customers? I don't think so.
     
  2. pkfraser

    pkfraser Active Member

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    Tony
    If only ISO had followed that Note through! Every other reference to "customer" in 9001 means "external". Yet again they have mixed up a specific definition / requirement with "here is an idea that you might find useful in certain circumstances". The old "supplier - organisation - customer" relationship from earlier versions of the standard was easy to follow - now we don't know what thy mean in many cases (and in other cases it is clear that they have forgotten what they have said in Notes like this).
     
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  3. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    After reviewing the statements in the standard referencing the customer, I stand corrected. Yes, I have to agree, the customer here is external to the organization. Thanks for the correction.
     
  4. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Although I don't subscribe to QMS that only covers the core processes, because I consider the process owners of the core processes are interested parties and their requirements are to be considered in establishing the scope of the QMS, there's no categorical statement in the standard that prohibits an organization to exclude the support processes. So, go ahead.
     
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  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    These are not processes. They are departments. Don't confuse the two. HR may have nothing to do with ensuring people are competent or training then until they are. HR may not be part of the QMS, but without determining competency and training, your Core processes will not be effective. IT is a department. If they perform maintenance of the computer systems needed for customers to access the company website and request a quote or place and order, maintain the licences on the gauge calibration database, your Core processes will be messed up. Think process and include those support processes which are necessary to make the Core processes function effectively.
     
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  6. Kranis

    Kranis Member

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    Thanks for all informative answers!

    My ISO consultant now tells me that so called Product processes (for e.g. Time management, Budget control management, Execute) is out of the scope of ISO.

    Actually, the product processes are our core processes, which I see as the most important ones for us.

    Is he correct here?
     
  7. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    We may have provided the proper counsel to people and organizations seeking clarification on establishing the scope, sadly there are CBs who will just accept whatever scope an organization would like to get certification as long as they get the business. One particular example in my country is a school with ISO 9001 certification that covers only its enrollment process.:confused::(:mad:
     
  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    The answer lays in understanding 2 things:

    The scope of your QMS (describe the activities, products and/or services your organization provides) and,
    Determining what processes within that scope are necessary to deliver outputs in an effective manner

    Your call. The consultant may be correct, however, it's not a case of being told, your management must realize what is being created and what it affects.
     
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