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Which certification applies in an audit?

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by PeterT, May 15, 2017.

  1. PeterT

    PeterT New Member

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    Interesting question that I can not find a direct answer too..... but also not sure how to search for the topic either.

    Background:
    I have a factory that makes both a consumer grade and an automotive grade component. The components ( both consumer and automotive grade ) are similar in construction and manufacturing process, but do have a few differences appropriate to the environment they are used in. The factory that makes these components is certified under both ISO and TS for these component's product categories specifically.

    The consumer grade component is less expensive than it automotive grade version and its production process is based mainly on the ISO standard. The automotive grade product is more expensive to cover product differences ( like to withstand high temperature, etc. ), the cost of the PPAP process and the cost of production using the more stringent TS standard.

    I have had a consumer customer audit this factory. The customer is non-Automotive and purchases 100% consumer grade parts. In the audit, the customer wanted to audit the consumer production line to the TS standard, under their understanding that a TS certified factory should use TS standard for all products, even if that product is not for the automotive market.

    Question:
    For a factory that has both TS and ISO certification for a given product category on its certification, is it formally required or stated somewhere that the factory must always use the TS standard in production for all products in a given category, even if the product made is a consumer grade product, not intended for automotive market?

    Any clarification is greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Peter: There is, somewhere, a statement to the effect that you can't (or more correctly, shouldn't) do what they call "ring fence" the product. That is to say, apply different quality systems to basically the same product. It's partly to protect the end user (and the automotive customer) in the event of a recall to the commercial product etc.
     
  3. CC Lau

    CC Lau New Member

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    Its really depend on you TS certificate scope. If your scope clearly state its for the design and manufacturing of automotive parts means that the TS standard does not cover your consumer product.
     
  4. PeterT

    PeterT New Member

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    Thank you for the replies.

    Andy: This is a really interesting comment to think on. Let me make a clarifying comment to see if it changes things. The consumer and automotive production lines are separate to the point that one could be removed from the factory without impact to the other line. The consumer product line originally came from a factory that was only ISO certified. By moving this ISO based consumer production line into a factory that happens to have a TS automotive production line ( for the same product category ), the ISO based consumer production line should now adopt & conform to TS?
    It is possible in the future that the consumer line could move out of this factory back to an ISO certified only factory. Production lines do not move that frequently, but over a product's long life it can see few production factory changes.

    CC Lau: For both of the factory's the ISO and TS certifications for this product category, the product category listings / wording are the same. The TS certification does not state automotive. I check several different product categories ( for several different factories ) and none of the TS certifications call out "automotive" specifically in the product category.
     
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    We must be careful not to conflate the location of production with the quality of production. Back in the "bad old days" of car production in the UK, Triumph made their infamous "TR 7" in 2 plants: Speke, nr Liverpool and Canley, West Midlands (the spiritual home of Triumph Cars). If you bought one, you really wanted it to be from Canley as they produced a higher quality result (the unions were somewhat to blame for the Speke plant quality).

    Now, we'd look back on that as something as stupid as it sounds and NOT the result of implementing a robust quality management system for "the product".
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  6. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    To me you have two separate products. One for consumer use and an upgraded version for automotive use. It's entirely appropriate to use two diff standards for each line. TS can only apply to automotive products. Tell your customer you'll gladly sell them the more expensive product.
     
  7. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Agree on this.
     
  8. Anders Kemper

    Anders Kemper New Member

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    In our factory we have both automotive customers and non automotive. For new automotive products we use APQP and send PPAP but for non automotive and sens we only send initial sampels for i.e. We have both 9001 and TS
     

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