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Stage 1 audit for TS16949 registration for certification

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by MCW8888, Jan 29, 2016.

  1. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    My company is just about ready for stage 1 audit for TS16949. Based on past experience we did our own gap analysis and pre-assessment. The Management Review is scheduled and Internal Audit reports are being audited (by the qualified TS auditor of course). I was told by the 3rd party registrar that we have to go to Africa to conduct an on-site visit to our Customer Service Center. We already finished the Internal Audit of Customer Service Center via the webcam. We did the process audit with inputs-out-puts and effectiveness. But the 3rd party auditor insisted that rule 4 said the conduct on-site visit to remote location support processes. We did visited all the remote location except Africa which we brought in via teleconference. Can someone quote to me where in Rule#4 does it says we have to go to remote location to conduct Internal Audit in preparation for Stage 1? Your feedback is highly appreciated.
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Is this an auditor's viewpoint? Maybe checking with your CB headquarters for clarification is the first step... As much as you can ask here, the REAL issue lies with the CB and how their auditors apply the rules...
     
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  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    This appears, from what's reported, to be an overzealous and inappropriate application of the rules for 3rd party audits being used on internal audits! My colleagues inform me that such a remote office would likely be the subject of a request for waiver from even the rules for the CBs, given the cost (high) and also impact on quality (low). I'd guess your auditor is off the rails...
     
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  4. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    We will be talking to him next week ( the Top Management, Quality Coordinator and myself the internal consultant of this company). I am going to read Rule #4 if I have to and escalate this to the CB. Your feedback is highly appreciated.
     
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I confirm this is NOT a requirement of the TS rules. You should push back on your CB and ask them to send a competent auditor in future...(ask them for a CA response)
     
  6. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    That will be my advise to the CB headquarters when the conversation hits the dead end. I will be with the Top Management and the Quality Manager, so I have to be very careful in following the rules of engagement. Thank you.
     
  7. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    The stage 1 audit is now complete. There was no major issues. The Internal audits were completed with us auditing remote locations via telecommunication and asking the support processes to send us documents as objective evidence. We are now planning the stage 2 audit. For this, there will be a site visit to the remote locations that are covered by the scope of the QMS. The Quality Manager of this site may want to be present during the visit to the remote site to follow-up the Corrective Action that was issued during the stage 1 internal audit. Additionally, he may want to be present in the event there is a nonconformance issued during the stage 2 audit. After all any nonconformance issued at remote locations will also affect the TS seeking certification facility.
     
  8. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Can you share what transpired during the "engagement" with the "over zealous" auditor? Did you ask the CB about the position of the auditor?
     
  9. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    I personally requested this particular auditor and he was not "over zealous" . We like him because during the engagement, the auditor allowed us to present our Quality Management System in a manner that it met the minimum intent of the TS standard as well as Customer Specific Requirements. The dialogue was a "win-win" situation. I know there will be more challenges in stage 2 because it will not only be an audit of documents but also audit of compliance to TS16949, Customer Specific Requirements and to Rule#4 of IATF. But in the end we are confident that our hard work will pay off and the findings manageable and acceptable. We understand that the auditors have to "pick up some crumbs" during the audits but we want those "crumbs" to be very low risk not only to our QMS but also to the OEM and Non-OEM customers. Thanks to all of you for giving me the tools that helps us manage through the journey of hopefully getting this TS16949 certificate.
     
  10. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Nice to know that your engagement turned out as a "win-win" situation. I hope auditors (especially expats) will have the same assertiveness in enforcing "conduct of on-site audits at remote locations" on ISIS or terrorist infested areas.:rolleyes:
     
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  11. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Good luck with that. The problem with auditors picking up "crumbs" is the burdensome nature of the current corrective action process. You'll fimd yourself bogged down in a bunch of non value added nonsense. Been down that road. Personally I had more important things to do.
     
  12. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    I request for this auditor from the CB. The off-site location is not an ISIS or terrorist infested area. If it is in the area that puts safety at risk, we have arranged for an on-line, or webcam teleconference.
     
  13. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I am hoping that this time I will have a valuable auditor. TS auditors are like a "pearl of great price". Unlike "pearls" auditors change in demeanor and work ethics over the years.
     
  14. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    But this is your choice to do this. By not holding your CBs feet to the fire, you end up with this situation. Please don't blame auditors (as a community) for this extra work. It's simply an option you've chosen. You know what they say when you point a finger in blame...
     
  15. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    I have done my homework without "burning bridges" with the CB and auditors. We have changed auditors. I will keep you posted after stage 2.
     
  16. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Stop yourself. I am not blaming "auditors (as a community)." I am blaming those specific auditors that choose to pick up meaningless crumbs so they hit some "quota" of findings rather than focus on the big picture and the overall effectiveness of your system. Over the years, every once in a while you get one even though your past experience with the CB has been good.
     
  17. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    Some auditors appear to have the tendency to do that because they are afraid of being subjected to a witness audit. Therefore the more nonconformance they can find the lower is the risk of being audited by IATF.
     
  18. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Not true, at all. The fact is that no findings mainly means the audit was superficial. Rarely are organizations so effective that there's nothing to report. It's expected by (good CBs) that auditor should be looking for things which need improvement. For example, organizations usually do one or two internal audits a year. That's not required by rarely do CB auditor report that "status and importance" isn't being compiled with. The auditor find less significant stuff and no-one ever pushes back to the CB to ask what they just spent $1,XXX on their audit for...
     
  19. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    We never bother to push back to the CB for spending money to be "bullied". But that is changed now.
     
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  20. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    That's a good idea. Anyway, I once have an experience here in the Philippines that a CB insisted to audit a Japan Sales Office for a group of companies. This sales office handles all order requirements from OEMs around the world and coordinates with affiliate companies like the one in my country. We explained that the sales office is not under the control of the Philippine manufacturing company that wanted to have an ISO/TS certification but he still insisted. We asked another CB for a second opinion and have a different position. This other CB doesn't need to audit the Japan sales office. However, because this group of companies have been using the CB mentioned earlier still decided to use them for certification services for TS on their affiliate companies. So we are left with no choice but to shoulder all the expenses of this auditor in visiting the Japan sales office.:(
     

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