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Setting out the Scope

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Douglas Corbett, Oct 9, 2019 at 1:36 PM.

  1. Douglas Corbett

    Douglas Corbett Member

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    Our company has just been bought by a Norwegian Company and we have relocated and joined the UK Arm. We have our own ISO 9001 2015 Certification, having been recertified in July.

    The UK part which was taken over a year before has its own Certificate separate from the Parent Company and have just undergone a Scope Extension Audit, with a view to coming under the main ISO 9001 2015 Cert of the Parent Company, the Plan is for the same to happen for our part of the business.

    The question I have is once we are all under one Certificate, how should the Scope be laid out, as although we are in legal terms all one company, we do sit as does the other part of the UK Business almost as separate divisions of the parent company. I would have thought the clearest and most concise way would be to break the scope down by Divisions, listing the Scopes as they currently Stand under our individual Certificates, rather than try to blend them all into one big scope, where it does not make it clear what is being done and where.
    I look forward to any thoughts people may have if they have experience working in a company set up in this sort of structure.

    Many thanks in advance.

    Doug
     
  2. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

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    The best answer Is on your cb, have a talk with your registrar and explain them your case.they will clarify you everything.
     
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    "Best"? I don't agree. I've seen horrible scope which include "design" when no design work is done. I've seen products listed the company NEVER produced. You simply can't always trust the auditors to know.

    Scope is easy to reconcile without involving those who can't grasp the basics.

    Douglas: Welcome. As with any multi-site certification, all locations are listed on an appendix/schedule which is referenced to the main certificate and referenced by that cert. Scopes are usually location specific and your location address and details should include the scope from your original certificate. Unless something crazy happened in the past (like design being added when you don't do it, or products being included which you don't make) and it'll be somewhat as you describe.
     
  4. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

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    Nothing is perfect, you may have wrong criteria of the CB by their auditors, but for this issue, the CB has the last word, not the customers, like it or not, unless be a very wrong proposal , in which you may complaint against them, or I'm I wrong ?
    Regards
     
  5. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    @Douglas Corbett , I believe, you have already the answer to your question in this statement:
    The list of the scopes will, usually, be indicated in a certificate schedule as mentioned by @Andy Nichols .
     
  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Not at all. It would be very wrong, to believe this, since I've seen a lot of inaccurate scopes. You seem to be of the opinion that somehow the CB and the auditors are experts. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not stating that anything should be perfect, please don't put that spin on my words. Experience - and I have quite a bit more than most in this respect - shows that scopes should be treated with caution. How else do you explain how "brake components" ended up on the certificate of a machining company which does engine parts?
     
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  7. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Andy
    I Trust what you say, I'm a beginner and what I said, Is what I ve seen.
    Thanks
     
  8. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    There are also CBs who would tolerate an organization that deliberately trim down its supposed scope just to get the business. Here in our country where the government reward government-owned and controlled organizations, including state schools, with performance bonuses resulted to organizations certified to ISO 9001 with very limited scopes like:
    • a light-rail organization certified for its drivers training process only;
    • a social security agency certified for its members application process only;
    • a state school certified for its enrollment process only;
    • and a lot of local government units certified for their business permitting only; etc.
     
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  9. Douglas Corbett

    Douglas Corbett Member

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    Hi Qualmx, I have spoken to them, however they are in Norway, so yes it is as I had described, however as the Parent Company is made up of a number of other business in Norway and now the UK which is split into two distinct divisions as well as a separate manufacturing site, the Group Scope, the list of all of the scopes in their entirety is getting bigger as they now have to add on the three additional scopes from the UK. The Auditor has coming back to me saying this is now getting too big so we need to shorten it ! This confuses me as I though that there was no limit it on size, albeit I do appreciate that it should be clear and concise and should identify what is included and what is not, so that interested parties and outside auditors can easily understand what the scope covers. My concern now is that there is a pressure being exerted for us to reduce the Scopes which in my mind are clear and concise, purely for esthetics of how it sits on the front page of the Certificate. Have you any thoughts on this?
     
  10. Douglas Corbett

    Douglas Corbett Member

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    Hi Tony, Thanks for your reply, yes I was fairly sure of this, but our new owners had created some doubt, however as the Parent Company is made up of a number of other business in Norway and now the UK which is split into two distinct divisions as well as a separate manufacturing site, the Group Scope, the list of all of the scopes in their entirety is getting bigger as they now have to add on the three additional scopes from the UK. The Auditor has coming back to me saying this is now getting too big so we need to shorten it ! This confuses me as I though that there was no limit it on size, albeit I do appreciate that it should be clear and concise and should identify what is included and what is not, so that interested parties and outside auditors can easily understand what the scope covers. My concern now is that there is a pressure being exerted for us to reduce the Scopes which in my mind are clear and concise, purely for esthetics of how it sits on the front page of the Certificate. Have you any thoughts on this?
     
  11. Douglas Corbett

    Douglas Corbett Member

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    Andy, I agree, we should never be scared to question an Auditor , even from a CB, as they may not really understand the business they are auditing, depending on their background.

    However as the Parent Company is made up of a number of other business in Norway and now the UK which is split into two distinct divisions as well as a separate manufacturing site, the Group Scope, the list of all of the scopes in their entirety is getting bigger as they now have to add on the three additional scopes from the UK. The Auditor has coming back to me saying this is now getting "too big", so we need to shorten it ! This confuses me as I though that there was no limit it on size, albeit I do appreciate that it should be clear and concise and should identify what is included and what is not, so that interested parties and outside auditors can easily understand what the scope covers. My concern now is that there is a pressure being exerted for us, to reduce the Scopes which in my mind are clear and concise, purely for esthetics of how it sits on the front page of the Certificate. Have you any thoughts on this?
     
  12. Miner

    Miner Moderator Staff Member

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    My company has 16 facilities on a common certification started over 15 years ago. There is a single certificate that lists the company headquarters and references all sites listed in the appendix. The main certificate lists the overall scope, while the appendix lists the individual site scopes.
     
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  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Nothing to do with the CB and/or auditor! The scope is your shop front to potential customers, who may be using ISO 9001 certification as a qualifier to do business. Tell your CB that you want them to drop some SICs from their accreditation scope because it's too long and see what they say...

    Douglas - I have worked for 2 significant British CBs for many years in a couple of roles. I'm "somewhat qualified" to guide you in this matter...
     
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  14. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    The Certificate of Registration for organizations with multi-sites or multi-scopes is usually supplemented by a Registration Schedule which lists all the individual sites and/or scopes covered. The Registration Schedule can have additional pages if the list won't fit in one page. See example below:
    upload_2019-10-11_5-22-29.png upload_2019-10-11_5-22-40.png
     
  15. Douglas Corbett

    Douglas Corbett Member

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    Hi Andy, Yes this was my thought as well. Sadly as the CB Auditor has a long association/relationship with our parent company and seems to have a different outlook on QMS from my experience in the UK. I always appreciate advice from the CB's, but do feel the Scope is very much our area. If it was not clear and concise, I could imagine an CB Auditor perhaps offering advice, but not solely on the basis they want it to be shorter.
    Thanks,

    Doug
     
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  16. Douglas Corbett

    Douglas Corbett Member

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    Tony,

    Yes this is how it is on the main certificate with the different Sites and Divisions broken down in the Appendix to the Certificate, detailing the individual Scopes.
    The UK Operation from the past year which is on a separate Certificate, is shown in the Appendix to the Certificate in the same way, as there are two sites. It is the bringing them under the one certificate that seems to be causing the issue as the UK Scope is larger than the ones on the main certificate currently. It may just be getting lost in translation, but the main point as it appears to being made is the size. There is no size limitation on a scope as far as I was aware. However, I am new to the business and did not write the original scope. Having looked at the scope in more detail, I have managed to re-write it and make it slicker, I feel without losing any of the detail, but at the same time including additions to the scope for the manufacturing plant, to cover new activity, different from the core manufacturing the business has been involved in for the majority of its existence since the mid-70's. I will wait to see what the response is.
    Thanks for the support.
    Regards,
    Doug
     
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