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Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by milas, Jun 27, 2016.

  1. milas

    milas New Member

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    Hi

    I am visiting some potential new suppliers in Asia next week who are accredited to ISO 9001:2015 but not sure who they are certified by. As part of the visit I do intend on reviewing some of there procedures, but is there any way of telling how good, bad or indifferent there management system ?


    Thanks in advance

    Sal
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Of course there is! It's what CB auditors are supposed to do at every audit and, what management are supposed to know every time they do a management review...
     
  3. milas

    milas New Member

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    Thanks

    Looking forward to hearing from some CB auditors on this
     
  4. MarkMeer

    MarkMeer Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you ask? ...or better yet, request a copy of their certificate for your records. You can then lookup the certification body, and check them out for yourself, as well as ensure the certificate is valid (correct scope, not expired...).
     
    Claes Gefvenberg likes this.
  5. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    In addition to getting a copy of their ISO9001:2015 certificate, check if the CB is approved by IRCA or equivalent. The CB should have some kind of logo in the certificate showing oversight. If there are smart objectives posted on the bulletin boards check if they have achieved their targets and ask what they are doing to fix it. You can find these in the Management Review. There are more. But I will let others chime in.
     
  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    IRCA doesn't approve CBs, MCW8888. CBs are accredited by a member of the IAF, or similar. IRCA is a training course accreditor and offers professional recognition services for management system auditors...
     
  7. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

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    Not only look the certificate,also take a look on their system.
    It happened to my that some companies have the certificate and even with that I have found major nonconformities in audits.
    Hope this helps
     
  8. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Andy. I know I stand corrected when I made this statement.
     
  9. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    An audit, whether it is conducted by a CB or an internal auditor, is a snapshot in time regarding the conformance and health of a management system. Just because a CB did not find a nonconformance, this is no indication that a management system is free from nonconforming activities.

    That said, I agree with looking at their system...however, a fully blown assessment of their system may not be possible (resources, timing, etc.). I'd suggest reviewing activities or processes that your organization believes are critical to the potential suppliers' ability to meet your requirements.
     
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  10. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

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    When I say,major it was because they didnt comply with criticals.
    E.g. evaluation and selection of suppliers. 7.4.1 (2008)
    You re right, to look at the most criticals but even if in a snapshot, such points are a must,and when are not in compliance, create a lot of doubts of the management system reliability.
    If findings are few and minor,ok it acceptable.
     
  11. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Don't rely heavily on ISO 9001 certification. Since you have the opportunity to visit the suppliers' premises, check the following:
    • controls on the shopfloor (e.g. preventive and corrective controls);
    • the inspection records (i.e. incoming, in-process and outgoing);
    • measuring equipment that they will use for the products that they will supply to you;
    • sample products;
    • production rate (i.e. how many units can they produce in a specified time frame ex. units per 8 hours);
    • infrastructure and resources;
    • skills and knowledge of their people;
    • consistency of the documented instructions with the actual practice;
    • delivery performance;
    • documented feedback of other customers; etc.
    Certificates from accredited CBs are just a by product of a good quality management system. The "real product" is products and services that make their customers happy.
     
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  12. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

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    Tonys

    Very well explained
     
  13. ncwalker

    ncwalker Well-Known Member

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    Also - if the people you talk to in the middle positions know all the right terms and definitions, yet the floor itself doesn't show evidence of this, that is a very strong indicator that management just isn't involved.
     
  14. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    To my way of thinking, it's a bit like watching any kids sports events (especially here in the USA). The kids can be seen to be involved, although they don't always turn up etc. and their "play" isn't always with conviction. Then there's the parents. Some turn up, unload the kids and drive off only to return at the (scheduled) end of the event. Some parents sit in their cars, on the phone or something. Those who are committed, sit on the side lines shouting encouragement, support, there with the refreshments/snacks and recognition of a job well done, encouragement etc when things don't go to plan...
     
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  15. ncwalker

    ncwalker Well-Known Member

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    A fantastic analogy. It is this, exactly like this.

    You can deploy in a location a tight, polished, perfect system. In all honesty it almost doesn't matter which one. They all have good points and bad points. But.... if management has a laissez faire attitude the system will not work. There will always be a few bad apples on the floor who don't embrace the chosen system. If management doesn't put a pressure/reward system and lead by example in the implementation, it WILL fail.

    And you will be left with a shit ton of meaningless VDT boards that look pretty and do nothing. :)
     
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