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Referencing ISO Clauses in QMS documentation ?

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Suraiya Ramkissoon, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Which CB are you talking about?

    Which means? It's a simply truth: CBs don't spend money on ensuring competency. Experience shows they wait until someone (like me, who knows what to expect) complains. I have complained directly to management about some auditors, and to the oversight bodies about others and will continue to do that, while I am still involved in this industry.
     
  2. Yukon

    Yukon Well-Known Member

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    Andy,
    In addition to my previous comment regarding the above 'Thread'. I agree with your comment that "...contract auditors...have odd interpretations of requirements..."; this maybe because the contract auditor was not trained on the ISO9001:2015 version of the standard which is why training is so important and supports my previous comments about training.

    I respectfully take issue with you when you say "...the CB can avoid...admitting they chose an incompetent auditor." I don't know of any CB that knowing hires incompetent people. CB records of audits are audited regularity by ANAB, SCC, Quest, CSA, UL, etc. In addition each CB auditor must witness audited by ANAB - for auditors that clients complain to ANAB about the frequency is higher. I have personally been assessed by ANAB twice (once each for ISO 9001, and TL 9001) in my 18 years at QMI/SAI and several times by SAI management per SAI internal requirements. Auditor competency requirements are the same globally and assessment schemes are almost identical - the exception being China.

    If Internal Auditors and Contract Auditors were subjected to the same scrutiny re. education/job training/third-party assessment/experience requirements as we CB Auditors are than, in my opinion, at minimum 75% of them would not be auditing.


    Regards,
    Yukon
     
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  3. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Here are some of the bases (from the statements in the standard) why we need to demonstrate conformity with the relevant requirements:

    4.4.1 - The organization shall establish, implement, maintain and continually improve a quality management system, including the processes needed and their interactions, in accordance with the requirements of this International Standard
    5.1.1c - Top management shall demonstrate leadership and commitment with respect to the quality management system by... ensuring the integration of the quality management system requirements into the organization’s business processes
    5.1.1f - Top management shall demonstrate leadership and commitment with respect to the quality management system by... communicating the importance of effective quality management and of conforming to the quality management system requirements
    5.2.1c - Top management shall establish, implement and maintain a quality policy that... includes a commitment to satisfy applicable requirements
    5.3a - Top management shall assign the responsibility and authority for... ensuring that the quality management system conforms to the requirements of this International
    Standard

    9.2.1a.2 - The organization shall conduct internal audits at planned intervals to provide information on whether the quality management system... conforms to... the requirements of this International Standard

    Methods to easily identify the requirements relevant to each QMS process may include:
    • referencing the relevant clauses in the sections of the quality manual;
    • referencing the relevant clauses in each documented procedures;
    • process vs clauses correlation matrices;
    • indicating the clauses, among other criteria, to be covered per process in the audit plan or schedule;
    • inclusion of the relevant clauses, again, among other criteria, in the audit checklist
     
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  4. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    Mine. While I (and some of my peers) do give customers a copy of a matrix and invite them to complete it, the end result seldom supports the process audit method nor acknowledges how often certain requirements (like documented information) should be included in a given audit. To be clear, methods for completing the matrix (now a part of our audit reports) also vary among auditors. There is no clearly defined expectation to point to.
    It means in a class of 12, I was the single participant in a 3rd party auditor role. All 12 of us received instruction on using the matrix as a simple, high level tool for identifying clauses to include with process audits. The other 11 people were 1st party auditors, several of whom were their organization's Lead Auditors. It makes sense that they receive more comprehensive information than is included in an Internal Auditor training.

    While practices vary, CBs do have a requirement to ensure competency as per accreditation rules and do spend money on it. Naturally, the individuals' behavior may vary while on site and naturally some may not agree with us. Your viewpoint on auditors' lack of competency is rightfully shared, but direct customer complaints are more likely to get a result.
     
  5. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    The industry seems to be moving to contract auditors instead of employees. Exceptions are for high demand disciplines like automotive, aerospace, medical instruments etc. I am a contract auditor, and have been since 2012. For us, qualification requires personal internal witnessing over a period of days. Accreditation requirements include training us all to the updated standards. I do wish more were clearly directed to the ISO/TC 176/SC2 Auditing Practices Group. I send my own trainees to that site, as well as customers.
     
  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    "Seems"? It's been that way since CBs arrived in the USA and discovered that clients wouldn't pay for 2 days of travel for a 2 day audit. That's the most significant reason.
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Do you know why? It's because CBs can define their own competency requirements and that may not include being on a Lead Auditor course! That way they save money. Plus, you're not going to get a job with a CB until you've been on a Lead Auditor course - at someone else's expense. You just have to follow the money. CBs don't invest in auditors - particularly contractors - unless they have to. Contractors, similarly, don't want to invest their time (often when they also consult) in spending time traveling to a CB audit staff event if they aren't compensated - which the CB won't do.

    Trust me, I've been around CB management for long enough to know the truth.
     
  8. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    Point taken. I say "seems" because I cannot speak for the practices of others with whom I am not directly associated.
     
  9. Yukon

    Yukon Well-Known Member

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    I have been on contract with QMI/SAI Global since 2002. In Canada/USA SAI employs approx 500 - 600 auditors of which in Canada there are only 14 full-time non- contract auditors. As a contract auditor we are paid more than the full-timers on a per day basis.

    If I can help just ask,
    Yukon
     
  10. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    That is the common refrain, but the formula in DQS incorporates a minimum for full timers plus a bonus for days beyond that. I do earn more than the full time auditors do, but am not clear how it would work out based on that formula.
     
  11. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    You have not been inside enough CBs to know all the truth. My CB paid full costs for both my TS 16949 (in 2013) and RC 14001 (in 2013) courses and continues to sponsor upkeep costs for Responsible Care required industry-related certification.

    I, as well as my peers are contractors. We are all required to attend the CB's annual training or equivalent as per accreditation rules. They pay a stipend for travel and they pay for our hotel costs.
     
  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    That's nice. One famous CB has a Christmas "gathering" (read into that what you may) for its auditors (I'm guessing some may not attend due to their cultural/religious beliefs or location)...
     
  13. Yukon

    Yukon Well-Known Member

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    We used to have a Christmas dinner/dance and the absolute majority in attendance were non-Christian it was a gathering, a time to have fun, have a nice dinner, a few galasses of wine, win a door prize. I read into it that the company had Christmas Spirit.

    If I can help just ask,
    Yukon
     

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