1. Hello and Welcome to The Quality Forum Online...Continuing in the spirit of People Helping People !
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

RBT confusing?

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Qualmx, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Location:
    Mexico
    In Tc 176 rbt, which Iso provides as support, I perceive RBT in a confused way, could someone clarify this issue?
    In the risk crossing the road, it shows the options to face risks as opportunities, while I consider them as actions to mitigate the risks.
    If I face a risk, I propose plans to lower (mitigate) the risks, and for opportunities, I take this approach: an opportunity it may be an isolated case for improvement in any process or when a risk appears, and I define the plans to mitigate it, an opportunity , may be to look for additional risk around the original risk.
    Please share your criteria.
    Thank you so much.
     
    jaltangerel likes this.
  2. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    468
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    USA
    There have been many complaints about the examples TC 176 used in their paper on Risk. Your description of your own thinking is spot-on, do not let the RBT paper convince you otherwise.
     
    jaltangerel and Qualmx like this.
  3. Raffy

    Raffy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    Philippines
    You can refer to A.4 Risk-based thinking of ISO 9001:2015 standard. It may somehow enlighten you. I hope this helps.
     
    Qualmx likes this.
  4. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    593
    Likes Received:
    374
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    According to ISO/TS 9002:2016 clause 6.1.1:
    "The intent of this subclause is to ensure that when planning the quality management system processes, the organization determines its risks and opportunities and plans actions to address them."

    So my criteria concerning RBT is like this:
    1. Start planning by analyzing a specific process;
    2. Determine its planned results;
    3. Determine the risks:
    Risk - adversely affects the achievement of the planned result;​
    4. Determine the opportunities:
    Opportunity - beneficially affects the achievement of the planned result;​
    5. Determine the existing control that already addresses the risk;
    6. Determine opportunities including the actions to realize them;
    7. Integrate and implement the actions into the existing controls of the process.
    8. Since the standard requires evaluation of effectiveness, verify effectiveness during internal audit and/or management review.

    For example: If I analyze the risks/opportunities of the Material Procurement process, I'll have something like this:
    upload_2018-1-16_11-13-27.png
     
  5. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Location:
    Mexico
    Thanks Tony.
    Two points:
    The opportunity could be the mitigation to lower the value of risk?
    On the other hand, could you give your opinion regarding exactly what to review and monitor in 4.1 and 4.2?
    Thank you
     
  6. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    593
    Likes Received:
    374
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    When the standard mentions (in Clause 6.1.2) "The organization shall plan a) actions to address these risks and opportunities...", I'm looking at three important things here:
    ACTIONS
    RISKS
    OPPORTUNITIES​
    To answer your question, I don't see that opportunities mitigate the risks. It's the actions that mitigate the risks. Actions can also facilitate the realization of the opportunities.

    I believe review of information concerning 4.1 and 4.2 can be best demonstrated during the management review. To clarify my position, see below:
    Clause 9.3.2b - intends to review information relevant to 4.1
    Clause 9.3.2c.1 - intends to review information relevant to 4.2​

    About the information that you need to monitor, refer to Notes 1,2 and 3 of 4.1. For 4.1, monitor the interested parties' requirements, feedback, perceptions, complaints, etc. Obtaining a copy of ISO/TS 9002:2016 is also helpful in understanding the requirements of ISO 9001:2015.
     
    Qualmx likes this.
  7. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Location:
    Mexico
    Thanks Tonys
    Very helpful your explanation, the evidences of these the activities of monitoring and reviewing should be kept?
    I mean if I found something, will be reported, but if found nothing, what action evidences that I did the review and monitoring should I have?

    Again Thanks you so much
     
  8. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    593
    Likes Received:
    374
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    If you review the information relevant to 4.1 and 4.2 and since documented information must be retained as evidence of management review, then you have to maintain records of the review.
     
    Qualmx likes this.
  9. Serious Man

    Serious Man Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    7
    Opportunities are external, internal issues, which if already recognized during planning of process and addressed in organizational procedures, would result in increase of implemented process effectiveness or efficiency when they occur.
    E.g. how do you plan to manage:
    - 30% increase of received request for quotation from your customers;
    - 50% increase of ordered production volume;
    - implementation of innovative ideas found during product/process design;
    - drop of raw material price caused by new manufacturer on market?
     
  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,949
    Likes Received:
    1,013
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Risk based thinking isn't a big deal. As I have posted in (many) other threads, if you look at the context, internal and external issues etc. (through a SWOT or similar analysis) it becomes pretty obvious for the leadership team what needs to be addressed in their strategy. I will admit there's a lot of "experts" out there, talking about risk assessment, ISO 31000 and so on, but it's really a lot, lot simpler than all than (for most of us).
     
  11. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Location:
    Mexico
    So, would it be , as to say found nothing in MR, or I found this? And be written down in the mr?
    Or you say record of the activity of monitoring( check some info on the web) and have an evidence of that?
    Thanks
     
  12. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    468
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    USA
    RBT is not intended to be limited to MR. Effectiveness of actions taken to address risks are, however required as one of MR inputs.
     
    Qualmx likes this.

Share This Page