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Non Conformance And Corrective Action

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Lafir Ali Rinos, Jul 14, 2019.

  1. Lafir Ali Rinos

    Lafir Ali Rinos Member

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    Hello Everyone,

    A Non conformance is raised for not updating the approved supplier list during Internal Audit. hence, it is found that system is there / procedure developed and mentioned about to update when there is a new addition. But the ppl who responsible for updation might fail to update during a new supplier added into the system.

    this shows the negligence of the ppl

    what could be the root cause and corrective action for this NC?

    suggestions are welcome...
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd simply correct the list. I rather doubt root cause is worth the time/effort.
     
  3. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    Did the approved supplier list (ASL) get updated later? Would it have been done via a periodic procedural check? What is in place to help ensure the list remains accurate?

    You don't say what industry you operate in. It makes sense to use risk as a factor in deciding whether a formal CA is appropriate. If your industry is regulated, and/or if there could be serious harm from a faulty supplied part/material being used after failure to keep the ASL current, then a formal CA might be appropriate.
     
  4. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Questions:
    1. Is there a required time frame on when the ASL must be updated after approving a new supplier?
    2. Did the audit date happen within that time frame?
    3. What can happen if the ASL was not updated within the required time frame?
     
  5. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Don't have a separate list. Any supplier in your AP/Ordering system should be "approved."
     
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  6. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    Good day @Lafir Ali Rinos ;
    @Golfman25 provides some wise council. Often the best way to "correct" a problem is to simply eliminate it. Every "item" you build within the management system will likely require some level of maintenance and update, so be careful not to build "too much". (Conversely, be sure to "build enough" to ensure it benefits the organization, particularly in regards to sustainability to provide enough information and direction to the next generation).

    In other words,... build wisely.

    Hope this helps.

    Be well.
     
  7. Suraiya Ramkissoon

    Suraiya Ramkissoon Active Member

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    I've had to issue a similar internal audit NC... Facilitated the 5 Whys root cause with the HOD and we came up with "lack of familiarity" as the root cause...
     
  8. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    Good day @Suraiya Ramkissoon ;
    I would respectfully (at risk of drifting from the original topic of the OP), argue that, using the 5 whys (or any other sound root cause analysis discipline), your organization has not gone "far enough". In other words, WHY is there lack of familiarity? Far too often we "let everyone know" and assume we have corrected the problem. Instead, I would urge you to dig deeper and identify a systemic gap that allowed this to happen. Once that is Identified and addressed, (countermeasured) then you will have implemented a sustainable fix that will last beyond the current workforce. (.... as @Golfman25 suggested in this example, just build "approval" into the integration process instead of maintaining a separate list).

    Hope this helps.

    Be well.
     
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  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Really? Lack of familiarity? Sounds like "training" to me! I'm going to be controversial and suggest there's a lot more going on than a lack of "familiarity". For starters, did anyone take a look at the process? Can the relevant people describe the process? Can the Process Owner (top manager) describe the process? Familiarity comes from ownership of requirements such as the process. Then, take a log hard look at the document control process to see how user friendly that is...
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  10. yodon

    yodon Active Member

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    Some sound advice in the previous posts. I would just caution about using this kind of language. Like Andy Nichols alludes to, the process is often the problem.
     
  11. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    @yodon 's council has a firm foundation....

    “…most troubles and most possibilities for improvement add up to proportions something like this:
    - 94% belong to the system (the responsibility of management)
    - 6% are attributable to special causes."
    W. Edwards Deming


    People don't fail, systems do.

    Be well.
     
  12. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no. That's simpleton thinking by Deming. At some point, people are the system. You have to expect that they follow the rules of the system --- i.e.; follow instructions, do what they are supposed to, etc. You can only go so far to make things people proof.
     
  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    You might want to retract that comment or risk having your man-card revoked...:eek:
     
  14. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    McGregor's X and Y theory applies. While it's true people are, at some point we still need a system to perform consistently. When people "act up" it is very often traceable to a management issue - and management is part of the system too. Deming knew this and made it the basis of so much of his 14 Points.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2019
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  15. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    Respectfully strongly disagree @Jennifer Kirley ;
    The system may be the vetting of the people we hire, the assignment of the people we hire, the training we do (or don't ) provide, but the "people" are not and never will be the system. My many years in manufacturing have shown me countless examples of this. If we believe the people that WE hire and train are the problem, then we are short sided and destined to fail. We will continue to fire, punish, and disempower the "people" that WE hired and trained in an effort to make them the "system" that we (leadership) should provide.

    I'll now step down from my soapbox.

    Be well.
     
  16. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Words like obedience, responsibility, accountability and commitment that emanate from the people will all be thrown to the trash can, if we will always blame the system that the same people have created.
     

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