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Need advice regarding 7.5.1.1 and 7.5.3.2

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by judegu, Oct 18, 2018.

  1. judegu

    judegu Active Member

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    Hi, guys. There are two things I want to discuss.

    First, it is 7.5.1.1 c).
    The quality manual shall include "the organization`s processes and their sequence and interactions (inputs and outputs), including type and extent of control of any outsourced processes;"

    I am totally good with the first half of this bullet, however with the second half, I feel something strange.
    Have you guys included the whole "type and extent" thing in your quality manual? I think a reference to it may be much better, since you can not describe this "type and extent" thing in a few words. At least, that is my idea.

    Second, it is about something in 7.5.3.2.
    "Documented information retained as evidence of conformity shall be protected from unintended alterations."
    Then what about the INTENDED alternations which aims at FOOLING the customers and other interested parties? Beacause the stardard thought we were all good people who wouldn`t do such thing? If so, sometimes, I did fail it. (I must confess here:()

    Looking forwards to your inputs.
     
  2. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    ..
    In regards to the IATF requirement for a Quality Manual. My first recommendation is to not overthink it. The IATF requirement for a quality manual specifies four minimum inclusions. I recommend that instead of redundantly placing this information within a Quality Manual, you consider using the Quality Manual as a "pointer" to simply direct the audience to the portions of your management system and documented processes, which actually govern and direct the topics required by the Quality Manual.

    For example, IATF 16949 4.4.1.1 Indicates that the "...organization shall include ALL products and services...their definition of externally provided products...services."
    The point here is that the supply chain has historically done a poor job of developing and controlling outsourced activities. IATF 16949 8.4 continues in 8.4.2.1 with requirements for "...documented process..." specific to "...outsourced processes.". If your organization is going to document outsource processes and their controls as required by IATF 16949 - 8.4.2.1 then I would advise you simply "point" to this documented process within your Quality Manual instead of redundantly repeating it within the Quality Manual.
    In my professional experience, if your Quality Manual can not fit onto one "page", then it is likely too long.


    Keep in mind the author's intent regarding the use of the word "intended". Intended in this context means as intended by the organization. i.e. the corporate intent. This is not meant to refer to the one individual who may "intend" to maliciously change/alter/sabotage information.

    Hope this helps.
    Be well.
     
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  3. judegu

    judegu Active Member

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  4. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    A simple matrix will do to define the type and extent of control on outsourced processes. You can include a 2-table column in your manual right after you have describe your organizations' processes (see below sample)
    upload_2018-10-20_15-31-17.png
    You can also read this.
     
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  5. judegu

    judegu Active Member

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    Yeah, a good way to do it and meanwhile keep it simple.

    As the famous English proverb says, There are a thousand Hamlets in a thousand people's eyes. ;)(NOTE: It is how it is said in English, right? I am only familiar with the Chinese-translated version:)). There are always unique insights to the same sentence in the BOOK. Really happy to see it from other aspects.
    Personally I am a fan of John`s the-corporate-intent theory.:D

    In my opinion, maybe we can raise the NC against intentional alternations based on 7.5.3.1 b). We shall protect the records. Here protection from intentional alternations may be considered to be included in the scope of this Protection.
     
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