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ISO 9001:2015 7.2 Competence

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Jake S, Nov 16, 2015.

  1. Jake S

    Jake S New Member

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    7.2 subsection (b) states: "ensure that these persons are competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, or experience;"

    Obviously, the company will have to show how they deemed a person competent. I am looking for opinions as to whether or not one could simply state the evidence of this assurance comes from the interview process?

    If for some reason we started 'testing' applicants or something like that we could possibly cause our organization EEOC violations because past applicants have not been 'tested' and future applicants could use this as possible discrimination. With that as a consideration - I am looking for folks opinions on whether us stating the interview process is our verification would be enough?
     
    Jake S, Nov 16, 2015
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  2. Alpine

    Alpine Member

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    I struggle to see how a mere interview would be sufficient evident to demonstrate competence. Past experience, qualifications, are all things I would use to demonstrate competence.
     
    Alpine, Nov 17, 2015
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  3. Somashekar

    Somashekar Well-Known Member

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    No. The company has to ensure to itself. You can then demonstrate to anyone when asked how you made sure or ensured persons are competent.
    If you further find out that your ensuring was less than adequate, you further take up training or other means to build required competency. There is no necessity OR the standard does not require that you generalize. It can be unique to every individual.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
    Somashekar, Nov 17, 2015
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  4. Somashekar

    Somashekar Well-Known Member

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    Most of our problems starts when we first want to build a response to some hypothetical auditor even before we think of mapping our actions and planned activities to meet / align to the standard's requirements ~~~~~
     
    Somashekar, Nov 17, 2015
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  5. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Maybe for some organizations, like in call centers, the interview process would be critical in determining whether a prospective employee has the competence to perform a call center agent's job. But for jobs that require licenses, e.g. engineers, doctors, pilots, you'll need more than just having the applicant undergo an interview process.
     
    tony s, Nov 17, 2015
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  6. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    An interview isn't really a good way to assess someone's competence (or qualifications). I could say I know how to drive an 18-wheeler and even have the right license, but that doesn't speak to my current competence (i.e., abilities to actually safely drive and park such a large vehicle).

    By bringing in the testing now, I fail to see how this discriminates against past applicants. The process to test did not exist then. Oh well. Once upon a time, women did not have the right vote in my country and now they do...it's not like we're going to go back and re-do votes from elections in the 1800's. ;-)

    As for future applicants, there are certain jobs that require certain skills and abilities. By including in the "Job Requirements" section of the job description or "Successful Applicants Must" section of the job ad verbiage to the effect that candidates must undergo and attain XX% on test 123, you are indicating what qualifications must be met in order to establish a baseline for competency.

    Competency is a skill or ability fundamentally required. If a person does not have the competency, you either don't hire them or you put them through more training (or you change the test...if you're Captain Kirk re: Kobiyashi Maru test). Not hiring an individual because they do not possess the skill/ability is a whole lot different than not hiring someone because of race, religion, gender, etc., and the test results are your objective evidence supporting a decision to not hire - discrimination isn't really a factor (unless the test is somehow skewed towards white men over 6'3" and between the ages of 18-25).

    You did not mention existing employees. They can be grandfathered in as competent for the time being, but you may wish to determine other means for checking this such as annual reviews/tests, nonconformances attributed to their conformance (or lack there of) to a process, and so on.
     
    RoxaneB, Nov 17, 2015
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  7. Jim Gardner

    Jim Gardner Member

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    What do you have in place at the moment? Under the 2008 version, the organisation was required to:
    Determine the necessary competence for personnel performing work affecting conformity to product requirements. Personnel can affect conformity directly
    i.e. Production Staff or indirectly, Management, Design staff etc.

    In my opinion, if you have nothing in place already, you need to
    1) Determine the competences required for each job function.
    2) Evaluate your existing staff against these requirements. ( You can determine personnel as "competent by experience")
    3) From the evaluations you are then able to identify any training requirements to achieve your desired competency requirements.
    4) Record all appropriate skills training received as well as certificates from education etc.

    Once you have the above completed, new starts can then be trained by existing competent people in line with your predetermined competence requirements.
     
    Jim Gardner, Nov 17, 2015
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  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Competency is demonstrated. I can tell you about all kinds of things during an interview - Like playing a guitar for example. I can tell you about the 6 strings, tuning and whatever. But can I play? Heck no! Be careful about interviews alone. Get them to SHOW you what they know. I once watched a guy use the space bar to set up columns in a document. He didn't know what the "tab" key was. Luckily, I happened to be in the right place at the right time...
     
    Andy Nichols, Nov 20, 2015
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  9. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Just to backup Andy's statement.

    ISO 9000:2005 defines competence as "demonstrated ability to apply knowledge and skills".

    ISO 9000:2015 defines competence as "ability to apply knowledge and skills to achieve intended results" with a Note that says "Demonstrated competence is sometimes referred to as qualification".
     
    tony s, Nov 21, 2015
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  10. James

    James Active Member

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    We use a temp hiring service with a probation period before bringing them on full time with us. It gives us a lot of good info on anyone before we consider bringing them on with us full time. It includes active screening and testing before someone starts as a temp in our facility.
     
    James, Nov 23, 2015
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