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Internal Auditor candidate selection

Discussion in 'ISO 19011 - Auditing Management Systems Guidelines' started by Andy Nichols, Jan 25, 2021.

  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    If an organization implements ISO 9001:2015 and has no practical experience of audits, how do they select suitable candidates to perform them? What should an organization consider, especially when it comes to audits of top management and all that entails? What guidance is out there which talks to criteria for selecting auditors (no-one's going to buy ISO 19011...)
     
  2. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    In my experience @Andy Nichols they need to find a consultant who is knowledgeable , experienced, and will take the time to provide them personal attention.

    If they have no practical experience of audits, then it may also be true that they don't fully understand the standard, the INTENT, and how to integrate efficiently into their organization.

    So many organizations I'm hired to work with have "missed the point" and built large, complicated, redundant, non-integrated "systems" that are simply a burden to manage and provide little or no benefit to the organization and its process owners.

    Be well.
     
  3. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    Options that may offer solutions or pathways to solutions for organizations may include, but are not limited to:
    • Coming to sites such as QFO and asking the question;
    • Locating organizations such as the one you work for @Andy Nichols for support;
    • Consultant option such as suggested by @John C. Abnet ;
    • Hiring a management rep who can facilitate the process; and/or,
    • Approach the local ASQ chapter (or professional networking group) and see if the members are willing to participate in a free "brainstorming and spit-balling" session.
     
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  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    The dilemma I see is that, how would someone know if my credentials were valuable? Or if @John C. Abnet was competent and possesses all/most of the personal characteristics defined in ISO 19011, for example? Equally, for the MR or the ASQ folks? It seems to me to be Catch 22, until some form of guidance is published in ISO 9001, as a note or requirement...
     
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  5. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    How do we know any of that now? We have heard experience after experience of dubiously competent CB auditors and they're supposed adhering to ISO 19011.

    Sure, we could put a note or requirement in ISO 9001, although I thought it was referred - granted, full disclosure, I don't have a copy of ISO 9001 within arm's reach of me. That said, if it went in as a requirement, it would need to be revamped likely for small businesses who may not have the human resources that check off all of those soft skill items or the financial resources to help develop those skills within their team.

    An organization that is just starting down the pathway of internal auditing will likely experience the growing pains that many of us went through - everything from the black-and-white auditors to the antagonistic auditors to the clueless auditors to those rare gems who truly show a talent for auditing. To help navigate those growing pains, there is ISO 19011 and those other resources out there. Or an organization can opt to to go at it on their own.

    You can "yeah, but" possible solutions offered on here, but I highly doubt there is a one-size-fits-all solution out there that will work for you.
     
  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed! Especially, since the majority of businesses are small-medium sized (the most represented community in the respondents to the survey which led to the 2015 revamp) and
    which could do with some significant revamping too, since (as I work through it designing an auditor course) a substantial portion of the content is directed at those who do auditing as a service and/or profession and would overwhelm a small/medium sized organization.
     
  7. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    During a previous external audit job for a small company where the owner's desk and the operation and admin key people are in one room, including some office equipment. While I was auditing the top management (i.e. owner), he noticed that two female operators are photocopying some documents while casually discussing. The owner excuse himself for a while and approach the two operators. I overheard him asking: "Do you need two people to do that"? I think, aside from having a good knowledge of the requirements and intent of the standard and experience in implementing management systems, one of the critical criteria for appointing an internal auditor is that he/she acts like an "alter ego" of the top management.
     
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