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IATF Internal Auditing

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by bkirch, Aug 12, 2020.

  1. bkirch

    bkirch Active Member

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    For our internal audits, we use a three year plan to audit all of our QMS processes. In that three year period, some of the processes are audited each year, and some are audited only once or twice, based on a risk analysis. So, we can demonstrate that all processes have been audited in that three year period. My question is, are we required to be able to demonstrate that all of the IATF clauses have been audited during that 3 year plan?
     
  2. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Active Member

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    The IATF standard isn't really clear on the documentation of showing that all processes were audited within the 3 year period but it does state that the internal audit programme as a whole has to be documented. As for us, we just keep a schedule of the audits due and mark them as complete as they are finished. As of right now, we maintain a yearly schedule to document auditing compliance but really thinking about changing this as our staffing isn't really plentiful to accommodate a yearly internal audit schedule
     
  3. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    Good day @bkirch .

    The terms used by the standard (and the question/responses) in this case are much more than semantics. In the original question it states.....


    - "three year plan to audit all of our QMS processes.
    - "IATF clauses have been audited during that 3 year plan"

    QMS processes and IATF clauses are not the same thing. Within clause 9.2 (Internal audit program), there are three specific "categories" of audit activity described. I believe (correct me if I am wrong) the original question was specific to 9.2.2.2 Quality management system audit.

    Nowhere in the IATF 16949 standard does it require to audit "...all of the IATF clauses..." to be audited. On the contrary, the standard requires a "process approach". The ISO authors have, for many years now, been trying to change the mindset and culture of siloed/independent clauses and instead of get us to view the QMS through the established processes. Your organization has "...determine(d) the processes needed for the quality management system"...(clause 4.4.1). Clause 9.2.2.2 now simply requires that we audit ALL of those processes (at minimum) over a three-year calendar period.

    Summary:
    NO. There is no need / requirement to audit to any of the IATF clauses. Ever.
    YES. There is a need / requirement to audit all of your QMS processes over each three-year calendar period.

    Hope this helps.
    Be well.
     
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  4. bkirch

    bkirch Active Member

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    Thanks John. Your explanation is how we approach it.
     
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  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    To be very clear, IMHO this is applying an external requirement to an internal audit and, as such is pretty much a worst case scenario. Imagine, waiting 3 years to tell management something wasn't done according to a procedure, 3 years earlier! As an internal auditor you'd be fired...

    If an organization has a robust method for planning and conducting processes, experience shows that using an effective planning tool, most Quality Systems can be audited, touching the majority of the standard's requirements even before a year is done. Using my Football(c) diagram shows how this can be accomplished. https://www.the-center.org/Blog/June-2018/How-Football-Can-Help-with-Auditing-a-Process-Base
     
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  6. TWhite

    TWhite New Member

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    I read your article on How Football Can Help With Auditing a Process Based QMS. I think I understand how to use the Football diagram but could you elaborate on it a little more or direct me to another article that goes into a little more depth?
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi TWhite - what would you like to know? If you are familiar with grocery shopping, think of the Football like the floor plan of the store and the line down the seam of the football as your path through the store. The "boxes" around the outside are the things on your shopping list you want to buy (in this case the things you want to audit) and the "seam" is the path of the process, from input to output. Each process can be considered to have "P.D.C.A" applied to it, so the boxes at the very start of the process will be "planning" related. Towards the end, they will be associated with checking, and then acting on the results of the process (not only the output).

    What else do you need?
     
  8. TWhite

    TWhite New Member

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    I'm just looking for things that will help me better train/inform our internal auditors. They only audit a couple of times a year and therefore, they don't fully develop and retain auditing skills. Most of it is culture. However, until the culture is changed keeping internal auditors informed of different methods, techniques, etc. is one way to help them develop.
     
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Maybe this is the root of the issue. This isn't about the auditors or auditing, as such, it's about what ISO 19011 calls audit program management. An Internal Audit program (one or more audits) should be dynamic and not based on a calendar. Audit scopes and audit criteria should be chosen to address the objective(s) of the audit. My guess is you're doing audits against IATF a couple of times a year to meet an expectation/myth or something which isn't actually a requirement.

    Can I ask where it is you are located? Country? City?
     
  10. TWhite

    TWhite New Member

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    Located in north central Indiana.
     

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