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How does an ISO based QMS integrate with "Lean" etc?

Discussion in 'Lean, Six Sigma and DFSS' started by Andy Nichols, May 27, 2016.

  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    In another (somewhat) unrelated thread, it was discussed that Deming, ISO 9001 and Lean are all based on "P.D.C.A"

    Can anyone describe how they integrate with each other?

    "Lean" tools (for those unfamiliar) typically include:
    • 5S
    • 7 Wastes Reduction
    • TPM
    • SPC
    • SMED
    • Kaizen
    • Kanban
    • One Piece Flow
    • Gemba
    and so on...
     
    Andy Nichols, May 27, 2016
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  2. Bev D

    Bev D Moderator Staff Member

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    Well Deming would snarl that PDCA is wrong; it's PDSA. He would point out that STUDY (deep understanding) is far different from CHECK (surface observation).

    beyond that there is nothing in ISO 9001 that precludes Deming and Lean (TPS). but there is nothing that makes that obvious or easy. we need a deep understanding of each to see how they can co-exist let alone be integrated. We would need to open our mind beyond ISO as a defect detection and prevention system to one that recognizes waste as evil. We would also have to change how many think about version control and overly documented procedures. An example is that Standard work in lean is NOT about documenting processes, but about creating a work stream that makes any deviation from the necessary steps visually and immediately obvious. Standard work also allows for rapid change when better methods are determined. There are built in checks to ensure that if the new method doesn't work it is quickly detected and corrected. There are no 'documents' to change. This is in direct contrast to how many implement ISO 9001. But it is in compliance with ISO 9001 - we just have to think differently - which is what Deming advocated for.
     
    Bev D, May 28, 2016
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  3. pkfraser

    pkfraser Active Member

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    Andy

    Why do you ask (if you know the answer!) - or are you trying to find out how folk think (or don't, as the case may be...)?

    PDCA (PDSA) is only a "tool", and one of questionable application in some cases. Many, if not most, workers, managers and organisations do not have the time, the inclination nor (sometimes) the understanding to "review and improve" on a regular basis. Many find that even maintaining the status quo is a challenge.

    Deming's PDSA focussed on industrial production processes to achieve improvements in the level of production. Non-manufacturing processes are by nature far more variable and require decisions to be made throughout the process, based on a range of circumstances. So they would take far more analysis, making learning lessons even more difficult, which is why it happens so rarely.

    PDCA seems to be spreading everywhere, including to many ISO diagrams about processes. I suspect that it is a convenient label to use to avoid explaining what should be done in particular circumstances. And I don't believe that it is a cycle. As it says in the CQI’s BoQK (re the definition of corporate strategy, but it applies to all processes): "Rather than trying to apply the Deming “PDSA” cycle to the definition of corporate strategy, it makes more sense to follow an APA (Assess / Plan / Act) process to emphasise:
    i) the importance of the first (Assess) stage and
    ii) the fact that it is not a continuous cycle but a repetitive process carried out at intervals.

    What is required with any activity is to try to plan it right at the outset, follow the plan and, when you have time, see if you can do it better the next time. And even then you may not have time to implement the required changes. One key flaw in ISO9001 is the way that it does not recognise that the management system, with its constituent processes, already exists - so why start with "Plan"? Assess (or Study) what you have now before you do anything else. If you are trying to make a process more efficient, take the same approach.
     
    pkfraser, May 28, 2016
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  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly!
     
    Andy Nichols, May 29, 2016
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