1. Hello and Welcome to The Quality Forum Online...Continuing in the spirit of People Helping People !
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

Effectiveness in everything?

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Qualmx, Nov 3, 2018.

  1. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Location:
    Mexico
    Hi all
    Into the 9001 system.
    Frequently is needed to provide training to people, some coming from a correction, corrective action, a weak knowledge in competency of some people and because the standard requires effectiveness of training, will be needed to measure effectiveness of all the training?
    Being little training, pair of hours teaching a people to fill out a form or a long training or one week to teach someone a process.
    By applying an exam on the topic or asking the boss to evaluate the performance of people.
    Please share your ideas.
    Thanks
     
  2. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2017
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    71
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Good day @Qualmx.

    It depends. I’ve sent teams to all day RCCA training and they returned with little or no understanding and skills than before. As result, I developed a 2 hour session curriculum which my experience has shown provides a good foundation of knowledge on the subject.
    The issue is providing an understanding of the INTENT of RCCA and the TOOLS that help people to meet that intent.
    The best curriculums provide an understanding of the investigation process since that is the priority in RCCA.
     
  3. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Location:
    Mexico
    Thanks John
    Could you explain what is session curriculum?
    On the other hand I was referring if we need to keep evidences of effectiveness if trainings are long sessions or very short and simples ones.
    Thanks
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2018
  4. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    670
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    Actually, the evaluation of the effectiveness on actions to acquire the necessary competence applies not only to training. The Note under clause 7.2 provides examples of the "applicable actions".

    In evaluating effectiveness, you need to go back to the definition of "effectiveness". Effectiveness is the "extent to which planned activities are realized and planned results are achieved". If the "applicable action" or the planned activity is training to acquire the needed competence, then the objective/s or the planned result/s should be clearly established. After the provision of training, the objective/s should be revisited to determine whether they are fulfilled. The results on evaluating whether the objective/s is/are fulfilled should be retained. This will satisfy the intent of 7.2c.
     
  5. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Location:
    Mexico
    Thanks Tony's
    I know we have to evaluate effectiveness, but you know that this it needs maybe an exam , and some testing, additionally is time consumingB, so I think in order for not to overload the system with a lot of exams
    and tests, which are evidences, I say, to evaluate effectiveness only in long training not in shorts ones, for example one training of one hour for teaching someone an issue.
    Regards
     
  6. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    670
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    Exams and tests are not the effective methods for determining effectiveness. Let's say we belong to an IT or MIS department of a company. You are a new employee and I'm your boss. Now the top management would like us to develop a database for the HR department. I assigned the development of the database to you. However, you are still new and don't have yet the competence to develop a database. So, I will need to send you to a database development training (this is the "applicable action" or the planned activity). I will then set the objectives or the planned results for the training that the company will have to invest for you. The planned results would be "develop a functional database for the HR department". Then, after you have completed the training, I will need to arrange with you a target date on when can you demonstrate that the planned results are fulfilled. Once the due date comes, I will now verify with you if you have actually develop a functional database for the HR department. I have to retain documented information about the results of my evaluation on the planned results you are tasked to accomplish. This should be how "effectiveness" is to be evaluated. Not through exams or tests. Unless my planned result is for you to pass the exam or test instead of developing a database for HR department.
     
  7. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Location:
    Mexico
    Thanks Tonys

    Ok, now my idea is to follow the next approach:

    Planned result = to have a person with good skills to give support to IT users (not specified skill level)
    Planned activities = have a windows training and of course passing exam with results = 8.

    Ok , verifying results, exam was passed with 9.5, that is ok.
    Next: Ask some users to send a request to support problems on windows to person was trained,
    and evaluate if service was ok, after evaluation, all users said ok.
    The effectiveness is fine.

    On the other hand, we may have the next scenario.
    The exam´s result was 7, and according to activities, was expected 8, so this plan was not achieved
    However when evaluating the reports of users, all of them said, according to support received, is ok.

    In this case, effectiveness is ok, even exam was not passed, because the main objective was to have a person
    with skills to give a good support.

    But. if main objective were: to have a skilled person in Windows , be sent to a training and have result in windows exam = 8.
    In this case, if exam result were 6, even if users were satisfied with the service, of course is not effective.

    Please share your opinion , thanks
     
  8. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    670
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    "To have a skilled person in Windows" can be an objective or a planned result. "Send to training" is not an objective in itself if we are talking about competence. It's an action or the planned activity. We don't send people to training just for the sake of attending a training. Training is just one of the "applicable actions" to acquire the necessary competence. Competence that affects the performance and effectiveness of the QMS. Will an exam result of 6 affect the QMS? or "users satisfied with service" affect the QMS?
     
    John C. Abnet and Qualmx like this.
  9. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    307
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Location:
    Mexico
    It is supposed that if a person has a training, and the result of exam in Windows is high 9 or 10, is excelent, we may expect very good performance, a result of 5 or 4, of course will affect the user´s activities, because will not provide good support to users, in consequence the QMS will be affected.
    Satisfied users, means are satisfied of service received, and QMS will not be affected, problems on users will be solved very well and quickly, thus, QMS will not be affected.
    This could be a case where, Imagine, users have an intensive use of internet and office applications, to place order to suppliers
    also to make intensive calculations on computers to produce work orders to production processes, if both activities dont run well, the QMS is affected seriously.

    Hope I understood well your questions.
    Thanks
     
  10. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2017
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    71
    Trophy Points:
    27
    Good day @Qualmx;
    By "session curriculum" I was simply referring to the length of the "class" for the 5Y curriculum I train teams to.

    Regarding your "other hand" 'statement, I apologize as I fear I may not have understood your initial question. The short answer is that the duration (long session or short simple ones), of training is not the key.
    In fact, as pointed out by @tony s "training in itself does not necessarily provide the knowledge and understanding needed to ensure competency. Training simply provides knowledge. Application, utilization, reciprocation, cognitive ability (i.e. putting the right person in the role), all lead to understanding. Understanding when in the proper environment, can then result in competency ("the ability to apply knowledge to achieve goals and objectives"). Evidence gathered as result of this provides the evidence of training effectiveness. Easy to say, but always a challenge to manifest this in the real world.

    Hope this helps.
    Be well.
     
    Qualmx likes this.

Share This Page