1. Hello and Welcome to The Quality Forum Online...Continuing in the spirit of People Helping People !
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

Document Control for ISO- Labeling DWG's as Uncontrolled Documents

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Joey E Hoyt, Jul 27, 2017.

  1. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    42
    The copies of the drawings in your production department are controlled. You have no problem there, assuming all copies are updated as necessary. Your problem would be where one stack is updated with a revision change, but someone missed the other.

    I think your issue is with document that aren't updated when revisions change. If your production people don't have the latest welding inspection criteria, what good is it. If they are temporary, print and use documents you're fine. If they are more permanent nature, you need to figure out a way to ensure they are updated with changes.

    Think of it this way. Uncontrolled documents are temporary in nature. They are good the moment you print them off. However, as time passes they may get stale as updates and revisions are made. At some point, they will actually be no good to use any longer. The "uncontrolled" stamp is used to save us the time of trying to find and recall all of the old copies which may be floating around. If you make a habit of using those docs on a per use basis, and then dispose of them, life becomes much easier. Good luck.
     
  2. hogheavenfarm

    hogheavenfarm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    138
    Trophy Points:
    42
    "..Our Engineering Department is now placing "UNCONTROLLED DOCUMENT" on all of it's drawings, and it is stated on every copy we print (as well as the digital versions we have access to)..."

    Now that's an issue. While printed drawings can be uncontrolled, you need access to controlled versions to compare them to. Our drawings state "Uncontrolled IF PRINTED" on each one, so if there is a question we can compare the printed copy with the digital "master". After the job is complete, we remove all the printed copies and only the original "master" then exists, and remains controlled. We stamp the "uncontrolled copies" during the job with an "Approved for Production" stamp, initialed and dated. If a change occurs during production, these are pulled and new ones issued.
     
    Andy Nichols and John C. Abnet like this.
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    2,137
    Likes Received:
    1,100
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    "Uncontrolled" is a cop-out... (per HogheavenFarm)
     
  4. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    42
    Sometimes you have to punt. :)
     
  5. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    681
    Likes Received:
    443
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    IMHO, when the responsibility for ensuring that documents are available and suitable for use where and when they are needed is entrusted to just one person or team - they will usually resort to marking documents as "uncontrolled when printed". Why? Because they don't want to be blamed if obsolete copies are unintentionally used for the current operation (i.e. NCs will be raised for them to answer). Most probably, they will answer "It's beyond our control". What if we make everybody is responsible to ensure their copies are consistent with the current versions of documents? If anybody is caught using copies different from the current master version, he/she will expect an NC to be issued to him/her. Maybe instead of stamping "uncontrolled copies" on printed documents, the header or footer of documents can have a statement like "Check the Master Documents List. Ensure that you are using the current version".
     
  6. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    486
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    USA
    The question is, is the information current? If not, no blurb in the document's footer will save you.
     
  7. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    681
    Likes Received:
    443
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    Ensuring the information is current is of course the intent of the standard. "How to ensure" is a question that can have many answers. I would be glad to know any alternative controls from our moderators and members here at QFO.
     
  8. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    42
    Actually, it's reasonably simple in our operation. Every job has a work order/traveler/router or whatever you want to call it. Attached to it is the most current copy of the print we have in our system. The order gets run and all the paperwork ends up back into the office and filed -- usually in a few weeks. Rinse and repeat for the next order. What we have to avoid is the lone print that finds its way around the shop without the traveler. We know that's not kosher and toss that print.
     
    Jennifer Kirley and tony s like this.
  9. hogheavenfarm

    hogheavenfarm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    205
    Likes Received:
    138
    Trophy Points:
    42
    We do the same. each job has a red notebook with all the approved production prints for each department. This follows the job around the shop until it is complete, then turned in to engineering after completion. (process) Changes made during production are noted on the drawings and incorporated into the next run. All of teh inspection data is recorded on the prints for future reference. If a RMA or NCR is encountered during the run, these are addressed and placed in the front of the book as well. It is not foolproof, especially when different departments are working on the same job, (who has the book?) But overall it works fairly well.
     
    tony s likes this.
  10. JFinn

    JFinn New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Hello all, Just joined the Forum, let's see about an hour ago, and came across this thread which is one of the many things I wanted more information on. Thanks for the comments and information. Uncontrolled if printed seems to come up short since there is no way to know when it was printed and therefore could be a previous revision. A thought I had was to auto print the date when a document is printed and add a comment such as 'uncontrolled copy after 24 hrs'. After this discussion perhaps the comment should be something like 'discard after 24 hrs'. This would be for documents where hardcopies are needed temporarily which is away from the original post. For documents that travel with a particular job or order, they would be the controlled (relevant) revision and applicable only to that job or order, correct?
     
  11. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    486
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    USA
    Control of documentation is a mix of technological solutions and human factors. Usually it's the human factor that turns out to be the weakness. This is not new and probably will always be with us. There are any number of software apps for controlling documents, and most of them are executed by people.

    The way to best control it is by a tight process, as hogheavenfarm described, and holding people responsible if they circumvent the process.
     
  12. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    681
    Likes Received:
    443
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    Laguna Philippines
    But...
    Since:
    Thus...
    If:
    Then...
    Therefore,
    We should focus more on controlling the people using the documents than just controlling the documents people are using.:p
     
    hogheavenfarm likes this.
  13. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    486
    Trophy Points:
    62
    Location:
    USA
    That is what I usually find, Tony, both as a (past) Document Control Administrator and as (1st and 3rd party) auditor. As with IT, the weak link is usually with the users.
     

Share This Page