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CB transition audit Minor NCs switched to Major NCs after closing meeting???!!!

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by didiC, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. didiC

    didiC New Member

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    The first week of May we had our transition audit. I started with the company as the QM Jun 2017. We had our 2008 surveillance audit in Aug, so I couldn't begin transitioning to 2015 until after that, plus I was trying to figure out my new company. So here's what happened during our audit.
    1. Management Review - as per our procedure, these are done annually at the close of the year. The MR for 2017 was completed in Jan to the 2008 standard, because that is what we were using that year. MY CB told me that we needed to have a MR done to the 2015 requirements prior to the audit, so I could have a meeting during the audit and he would call it completed. We did this, no NC given. 3 weeks later, I get an email saying the reviewer did not find this acceptable and we were now being given a Major NC.
    2. Internal Audits - our Internal Auditors are trained outside. Since we were a bit late converting, I could not get their training done until 2 weeks after the audit. Since I did not have trained auditors, we could not get our IA's done. At the closing meeting we received a minor NC for this since their training was scheduled and there was a detailed audit plan in place. 3 weeks later, this was also changed to a major by the reviewer!

    And to boot, the email says "your certificate expires on June 12 th so get everything in ASAP". I had never heard of NC's changing after the closing meeting. Is this right?
     
    Steven Severt likes this.
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, while not common, it can be done by the reviewers. They sound realistic and appropriate to me.
     
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  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Somewhat in your "defence", I'd take a look at what the CB auditor had been reporting (and for your information) be looking at what Management Review had been including. The 2015 standard has been out since September and this change should have been on the agenda at the EoY review for 2015. What was recorded in Management Review? Anything? Did your CB provide any information to begin work on. Was there an MR at the company in 2015 who'd know about the changes? Same for 2016...

    While I fully understand the dilemma you face, this is a symptom of a much bigger issue at the heart of why a 3 year period was eaten up to get to this point... Was there a plan?
     
  4. hogheavenfarm

    hogheavenfarm Well-Known Member

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    This is why I am always wary about being hired just before an audit. Many company's put off all semblance of ISO until it is ready to bite them, then look for someone to pull a rabbit out of a hat at the last minute. That's a big red flag to me, and says a lot about the company culture.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2018
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  5. Steven Severt

    Steven Severt Member

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    I actually just faced some really similar challenges. We are doing our transition right now as well between all of our facilities, and there has not been a Quality Rep in 2 of the 3 for the last year. That being said, the internal audits and management review had not been completed to the 2015 standard. We also did not have any other people here trained as internal auditors, so I did not have anyone available to complete them. I was also getting familiar with our company as I've only been here for 3 months, and attempting to get everything ready for the 2015 transition. How I got around this - with surprising success - was complete the internal audits myself, then issue myself a corrective action for violating our own procedure on internal auditing which included the language that 'an internal auditor shall not audit their own work', then completed the management review. While people laughed at the fact that I issued myself a corrective action for auditing my own work, it worked out and we got through unscathed. At our Ohio facility, where we just finished 2 days of auditing, we only had one minor nonconformity. Now I'm hopping on a plane to do the same thing in North Carolina before our CB audit at the end of the month.
     
  6. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    Change your procedure which prohibits "auditing your own work." That's not in the standard, anywhere. And as you proved, you can audit your own work and be very successful doing so. Good luck.
     
  7. Serious Man

    Serious Man Active Member

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    During audits sometimes nonconformities are determined.
    Without diagnosed schizophrenia, auditor auditing own work is not able to find it.
    It seems that we have here this kind of auditors.
    Unfortunately, I am not and I have to ask other auditor to audit my work.
     
  8. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    I haven't experienced yet getting a Major NC by someone who was not present at the audit venue. The CB organization should not send auditors who can't distinguish between a minor from a major NC. They should be made aware by their organization on their definition of minor and major NC.
     

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