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Audit finding using ISO 9000?

Discussion in 'ISO 19011 - Auditing Management Systems Guidelines' started by Andy Nichols, Dec 6, 2021.

  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I read elsewhere a CB manager stating that a non-conformity could be written using ISO 9000 - the vocab. document.

    Comments? Experiences?
     
    Andy Nichols, Dec 6, 2021
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  2. John C. Abnet

    John C. Abnet Well-Known Member

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    This certainly comes up periodically @Andy Nichols
    The simple answer is an organization is NOT certified to a normative reference (in this case, ISO9000). So a non conformance can not be written against anything but clauses in the standard being certified (by rule).
    The problem comes as result of some of the verbiage used to describe normative reference eg…

    Per IEC:
    5.1 Purpose or rationale
    The Normative references clause lists, for information, those documents which are cited in the text in such a way that some or all of their content constitutes requirements of the document.

    also:
    ISO/IEC Directives, Part two, Section 6.2.2, defines the inclusion of a normative reference as, “This conditional element shall give a list of the referenced documents… in such a way as to make them indispensable for the application of the document

    Regardless of any confusions, a non conformity can NOT be written against ISO 9000.

    Be well
     
    John C. Abnet, Dec 6, 2021
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    RonR Quality Pro likes this.
  3. RonR Quality Pro

    RonR Quality Pro Active Member

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    John is absolutely correct. Nonconformances CANNOT be written against something that you are not certified to......I have had auditors (usually customer auditors, but the occasional internal auditor, and once a CB auditor) try and write findings against me because they 'KNOW' its not right that we do it that way....just look here in (insert name of any other standard than the one i'm being audited to) and see how it explains it.

    Yes, the 'other' standard requires that....but no, you CANNOT audit me to that requirement.
     
    RonR Quality Pro, Dec 6, 2021
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  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I too, after 30+ years in and around the 3rd Party certification industry have never heard such a thing! However, the operation manager was quite clear that - when considering a non-conformity for "not auditing the whole QMS in a year" - reference could be made to a definition in ISO 9000. What's a big concern is that this is an IAF member CB!
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2021
    Andy Nichols, Dec 6, 2021
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  5. RonR Quality Pro

    RonR Quality Pro Active Member

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    It appears that the auditor is not really familiar with the REQUIREMENTS of the standard, and instead is relying on past practice and what 'most' other companies do.

    9.2 Internal Audit requires: "The organization shall conduct internal audits at PLANNED INTERVALS to provide information on whether the quality management system: (etc etc)

    Nowhere does it state that the audit cycle MUST be an annual one.

    The requirement of the IATF standard is a little different, in that it prescribes (9.2.2.2) that the full QMS audit cycle be completed over a three-year period.

    I know that most companies plan around an annual schedule, but this is NOT required, and despite it being a 'good idea' to do it annually, there is no mandate within the standard to do so.
     
    RonR Quality Pro, Dec 7, 2021
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