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9.2.2.2 Quality management system audit

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by Carlee Gruizinga, Jun 28, 2022.

  1. Carlee Gruizinga

    Carlee Gruizinga Member

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    Hello!

    We are currently in process of our IATF 16949 Stage 2 audit.

    The auditor brought up a minor non-conformity that there were Internal Audits that did not include a review of the metrics from that process. The standard does reference using the process approach...but I struggle to see where it specific requires that the IA review metrics/KPIs for each process.

    Is this common practice? Thanks!
    -Carlee Gruizinga
     
    Carlee Gruizinga, Jun 28, 2022
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  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Carlee! Long time!

    I'd agree, that the standard doesn't specifically require the audits to review metrics. What you may be experiencing is some "mission creep" from the IATF certification people at the IAOB and their messaging to the CBs. They have been told THEY must review the "KPIs" (for want of a better term).

    So, if the auditor does leave a non-conformity which cites 9.2.2.1 et al. then they are incorrect and you can reject the non-conformity. I'd counsel against arguing, but take it up with their Operations management or through your CSR.

    Now, between you and me, internal audits SHOULD be looking at 1) objectives and b) the results - to see if the objectives were met. There are other ways to determine effectiveness (which is really what the auditor is asking for, but it doesn't come across that way).

    Give me a call sometime if you need to chat. (248-938-2631)
     
    Andy Nichols, Jun 28, 2022
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  3. Carlee Gruizinga

    Carlee Gruizinga Member

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    Thank you Andy!! Appreciate the insight. Good to hear from you. I am sure I will have more questions as our audit progresses!
     
    Carlee Gruizinga, Jun 28, 2022
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  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    You'll recall, perhaps, in the auditor case study, the Sales dept had a "code entry" sheet they used to track errors. The auditor was told the CES had helped to "overcome" errors (removed them completely, or error proofed them) - no need to check KPIs in that case! Also, if the customer never complains and keeps buying, the process must also be effective - and no KPIs were involved...

    It also occurs to me that the need for KPIs to be audited, comes from the scope, objective and audit criteria. It could well be that an audit for simply for "compliance to the process". You don't HAVE TO audit for effectiveness each/every time. The auditor is misguided.
     
    Andy Nichols, Jun 28, 2022
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  5. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Well-Known Member

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    Part of the process approach involves reviewing objectives for key processes of the quality management system. Their point being, how do you know your processes are effective if you're not reviewing the objectives/metrics for them? As far as them siting a minor finding for it, it's probably being called out under clause 6.2.1 e) in the ISO 9001:2015 manual since the IATF manual points to that section but it seems like a stretch to me because, although objectives are primarily reviewed during the auditing process, there are other areas within the QMS that can document the review of objectives. If you can provide evidence that your metrics are reviewed, I don't see how they can write up a minor finding for it stating there was no review of them during the internal audits. I can say for certain we have never been written up for that and I know for a fact that not all audits reviewed objectives, as we cover these in management review as well.
     
    qmr1976, Jun 28, 2022
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  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly. The clue is in what clause is being referenced. There is NOTHING in IATF 16949 which states audits "shall" review objectives. TBH, if management know their objectives and they know their results, the ONLY part IA plays is in determining if the processes were followed. Hence, ISO doesn't specify (neither does IATF enhance) the IA need to review KPIS...
     
    Andy Nichols, Jun 28, 2022
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  7. Carlee Gruizinga

    Carlee Gruizinga Member

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    Thank you! Yeah I kept thinking that metrics are a central theme in MGMT review with plenty of evidence that KPIs from different processes are discussed. This would be an easy fix for us to update the IA summary form that we use, but we want to make sure we are adding value to the process as a result of a nonconformity.

    Thanks for the insight!
     
    Carlee Gruizinga, Jun 29, 2022
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  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Good to know you're thinking that way. Elsewhere, some replies might read that you should ask the auditor to "show me the shall", and thereby shut down their opinion of what "should" happen...
     
    Andy Nichols, Jun 29, 2022
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  9. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    When auditors ask line operators for metrics in a process audit they are exhibiting a lack of imagination as to how to audit to the standards' actual requirements, which are that personnel are aware of their performance in support of the QMS and meeting customer requirements. I can offer that as a CB auditor I am expected to include metrics, but I need to be careful who I ask and how I ask in order to get the right information. If a machine operator can't tell me, it doesn't indicate there aren't any metrics; he/she might just have stage fright or something else. If I ask "How can you tell if you are doing a good job?" the answer might come more easily and be just as valid.

    And so, if you are getting called out for not having performance indicators for a process but they really do exist, I suggest filing a dispute with the CB so the auditor (and his/her associates) can get corrected.
     
    Jennifer Kirley, Jun 30, 2022
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  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly so. Let's not forget this is a "management system". The auditor should be spending their time with "management" not asking truly dumb questions of operators...
     
    Andy Nichols, Jul 10, 2022
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  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    How did it go, after all?
     
    Andy Nichols, Jul 10, 2022
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  12. Carlee Gruizinga

    Carlee Gruizinga Member

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    The audit went well! The initial nonconformity raised about ensuring metrics are reviewed during Internal Audits was dropped down to an OFI. We ended up with zero nonconformities and received recommendation for certification! Thanks for all the feedback!!
     
    Carlee Gruizinga, Jul 15, 2022
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  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Yay you! Excellent work. (ignore the "OFI" there's nothing to improve...)
     
    Andy Nichols, Jul 16, 2022
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