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4.4.1 b) determine the sequence and interaction of these processes

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by The PPAP Assassin, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. The PPAP Assassin

    The PPAP Assassin Active Member

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    Quick question:

    Have we already satisfied this requirement under (4.4 QMS and it's processes) if we have existing procedures for each process that defines their sequences and interactions?

    Or, do I need to make a process flow diagram, or some kind of process interaction map or chart?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Kinda difficult to tell, unless you could "share" and example. You can accomplish meeting this from both methods - which one suits best?
     
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  3. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

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    If in your existing procedures, you show all the processes, is ok,if they are shown separated, you need a general process map.
     
  4. The PPAP Assassin

    The PPAP Assassin Active Member

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    Thanks for the reply Andy.

    For instance, our "Cut-To-Length" procedure for our 48" and 72" CTL machines is named "Cut-To-Length Process"

    This procedure is a step by step guide which contains what the objective is, who is responsible, and the general "start to finish" process.

    There is also 3 other procedure for this process.

    1.) 72" CTL Set-Up (which is more of a work instruction..) & 48" CTL Set-Up (again, more of a work instruction)
    2.) "Cut-To-Length Inspection Procedure" (which details more elaborate requirements/ inspection criteria.. intervals, frequencies, etc..)

    I have already created a really nice process flow diagram, but only for our slitting line.. Was thinking of doing one for each process here.. Wouldn't really take too much time, but in a matter of "are we meeting the requirements for 4.1.1. b), do our procedures already satisfy them?

    Thanks again
     
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm usually looking at this from 15,000 ft. As a consultant, this is where the leadership "see" (recognize) their process(es) and how they interact. In 20 years of doing this, I've found the most value in defining the "sequence and interaction of the processes" is the light bulbs going on in their heads about why many problems are caused - for example quoting a client without fully understanding the delivery times/volumes involved - stems from this lack of understanding. 30,000 feis too high. 15,000 feet get their juices flowing...
     
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  6. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Determining the sequence and interaction of the processes can be viewed at different levels. For examples:
    At system level: upload_2018-1-5_18-18-7.png
    At process level: upload_2018-1-5_18-18-44.png
    At procedure level: upload_2018-1-5_18-19-35.png
     
  7. Nashman15

    Nashman15 New Member

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    Hello our company has this process map and our audit led us to many minor NC's. I was told that we list too many processes and that we must meet all the requirements in 4.4.1. Part of the new requirement is efficiency and effectiveness of processes are to be evaluated and on Management review.
    So how to show just the required processes because we have to have KPI's and track all the items listed that are processes. Some can be procedures I believe but I am having a hard time separating them.
    Please look at what I have and be gentle and let me know what it required and what is a procedure.
    Thank you for your input.
     

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    The PPAP Assassin likes this.
  8. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    First because you talk about efficiency and effectiveness measures, it sounds like you're IATF 16949?

    What you can do is combine as many small processes into one larger process. For example, you could combine sales, RFQ and Quoting into a single "process" and measure that. APQP and PPAP are probably part of your Design and Development process. Etc. This will cut down on the required kpis. Good luck.
     
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    More stupidity! "Too many" is an opinion. Your auditor needs to keep to requirements, not opinion. The focus of measuring effectiveness and efficiency should be on the processes which take customer requirements and turn them into products.
     
  10. Nashman15

    Nashman15 New Member

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    What the auditor was saying is that we have to have KPI's on all our processes and supporting processes so it is a lot of work we have to track and work on plus a lot to be audited and for no reason.
    We are IATF 16949/ISO 9001:2015. I read there are 20 processes in the standard mentioned by name, not sure if it is mandatory for us to list those and we will be ok or not. We have turtle diagrams for each one listed but I had no idea we would need to do that much work on each. Rough audit for sure.
    Thanks for your input.
     
  11. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    It is really unfortunate that IATF mandated this measurement requirement. It creates a lot of unnecessary work. Try to combine and use the same kpis for multiple processes.
     
  12. Che Promubol

    Che Promubol Member

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    I find useful - if not for CB's but for myself - that by having something that shows the sequence and interaction of our processes, when it comes to reviewing them/auditing them we can really see if the inputs/outputs knit together.

    Nice post.
     
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