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4.1 Outsourced process - clarification required

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2008 - Quality Management Systems' started by Ganesh Sundaresan, Sep 22, 2015.

  1. Ganesh Sundaresan

    Ganesh Sundaresan Active Member

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    Does deploying contract manpower for Manufacturing process amount to outsourcing a process? And if that be the case, does the Organization need to demonstrate their control in the lines of 7.4 over the agency to which the process has been outsourced? Particularly, does the Organization need to demonstrate the criteria for selection, evaluation, performance rating, etc in the case of agency that supplies Manpower?
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
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  2. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely!! From my standpoint of just being a quality focal point there will be no change to section 7.4.
     
  3. hogheavenfarm

    hogheavenfarm Well-Known Member

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    It seems you would certainly be outsourcing at least a portion of your HR function, and processes involved there would need to be 'transferred' to your 'supplier'.
     
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, it depends on what they do for you! Do they simply find bodies for you? Do you have to train and ensure competency of those bodies? If they are simply sorting candidates out for you I wouldn't consider that an outsourced process which affects product quality - unless the agency is training them as well...
     
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  5. Somashekar

    Somashekar Moderator Staff Member

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    The manpower doing the manufacturing process are performing the tasks within your boundaries and under your direct orders and controls and training. This manpower therefore is not an outsourced process. You need to look at outsourced processes from the product requirements concern.
     
  6. Ganesh Sundaresan

    Ganesh Sundaresan Active Member

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    The agency does not train them, but we do. It so happens that on any given day, few trained guys do not turn up and we need to run the show with the available guys. Therefore, the agency's overall performance does have an impact on our Product Quality. This is my real case scenario. I am trying to enforce some sort of control over them.
     
  7. Somashekar

    Somashekar Moderator Staff Member

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    The ISO is concerned about how precisely you run the show with the available guys. ISO is not concerned with agency manpower absenteeism. This is your internal corrective action about your manpower supply source performance. ISO is concerned about your corrective action mechanism ~~~~~
     
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  8. James

    James Active Member

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    I don't think I know exactly what's going on, but do you think the agency would fall under an Approved Supplier/Vendor List? If so you could use whatever requirements you have there as a metric, maybe you could adjust your requirements to better fit what they are providing and what you expect of them.
     
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    The Agency has zero impact on product quality! If they don't get you people who are reliable, find someone who will! Attempting to use ISO as a stick to beat the Agency is a waste of time and effort. Find out why these people were being hired and maybe look at fixing that. If the Agency don't care, dump them.
     
  10. Ganesh Sundaresan

    Ganesh Sundaresan Active Member

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    Strange. If Operator training has an impact on Product Quality, why not the agency that supplies Operator have anything to do with Quality. If I have to find out why this happens as it happens and fix it, is it something other than PDCA, the God methodology of ISO at least to my knowledge. I am increasingly getting a feeling that we tend to underestimate Service providers in the Manufacturing environment. Service providers seem to be not getting due focus, as much as a product supplier does.
     
  11. Ganesh Sundaresan

    Ganesh Sundaresan Active Member

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    If Processes used for "Provision of Resources" is outsourced, it is well within the realm of 4.1 according to its Note. Why is this Corrective action internal and not subject to be audited?
     
  12. Ganesh Sundaresan

    Ganesh Sundaresan Active Member

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    They are not in our approved Vendor list. But I am certainly thinking in that lines.
     
  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    HOW these people arrived at your location is of no consequence. Your organization trained them. You might have the same issue with people who have been there a while and didn't come via an agency. I believe you are overthinking this. Take it from when these people walk in the door and do something which affects quality. Not turning up for work isn't a product quality issue at all.
     
  14. Somashekar

    Somashekar Moderator Staff Member

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    Ganesh... Lets first both agree that this is not an outsourced process.
    Why ?
    The work process effecting quality is happening within your boundaries, and under your direct control and supervision. The manpower doing it are contracted. This headcount is considered as the organization headcount as far as the QMS process is concerned., as well as CB audits.
    If you have concerns about the agency who supply you this manpower, then it is a matter of your evaluation and selection of the agency.
    When you want to continue with this agency, you need to drive a corrective action. Corrective actions are your QMS activity and certainly are subjected to audit by you in your internal audit as well as the CB audit.
     
  15. PaulJSmith

    PaulJSmith Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Andy and Somashekar. Your temporary employees not showing up for work is no different than you regular employees not showing up for work. Do you chide your own HR department for this? Do you open a CA for them? The agency you use has about as much control over their contractors as your HR has over permanent employees. People either show up, or they don't.

    When they do get there, regardless of the path they took, they need to know what to do. You train them, and they work in your facility for you. This is definitely not outsourcing.

    It's possible that you might consider it to be outsourcing HR activities. But, I think even that is a bit of a stretch. Surely your organization passed to them the requirements for the job. Is that any different than posting those same requirements in a local newspaper help wanted ad or an online service?
     
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