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Supplier audit COC

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by russell nugent, Oct 7, 2022.

  1. russell nugent

    russell nugent Active Member

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    I have recently carried out a supplier audit where the product they manufacture has 4 parts , none of which has a COC . The company are certified to ISO 19001 where as my company is IATF 16949 . As part of my audit report I have requested the provide COC for products used in production . Looking through the standard I am not sure what it falls under ???
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Requiring a CoC (certificate of compliance?) is a contractual requirement, not an audit requirement. You can try to make the supplier give you one, but to be honest, they'd be well within their rights (commercially) to tell you to "pack sand".

    If you are looking for something in IATF 16949 to support your case, don't bother. It's not there. Also, if your organization values its supplier relationships, things like certificates of conformity (which are generally worthless) are agreed up front in the relationship.

    Sorry to be blunt, but supplier relationships are very important to get right.
     
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  3. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Well-Known Member

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    The standard just requires you to monitor your suppliers and you determine what criteria they have to demonstrate for them to be considered an approved supplier. I'm guessing one of your internal procedures requires them to be ISO certified at a minimum, in which case it would make sense for you to request a current certificate.
     
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    We'll check, but I don't think it's an ISO certificate being requested...
     
  5. russell nugent

    russell nugent Active Member

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    Yes , Minimum iso 9001 . Just thought it was strange that after approval there is almost no monitoring of what is being delivered from sub supplier .
     
  6. qmr1976

    qmr1976 Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah, they should definitely be monitoring their suppliers, as well. It would definitely fall under 8.4.1 clause in the ISO standard, but it gets kind of tricky on what you can ask for. If their procedure says they require a current ISO certificate from their suppliers and they can't provide it, then that would make sense but if not you would have to look elsewhere for evidence of them not complying with 8.4.1.
     
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Your post talks about a CofC - can you clarify what you mean? Monitoring of suppliers is totally different from requiring a certificate.
     
  8. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    Requiring a CofC or CofA is a requirement that gets documented in the supplier quality agreement. ISO/ IATF asks that these agreements be fulfilled. Does your employer and supplier have such a contract in with this specified requirement in place? If not, I don't see a shall to audit to.
     
  9. andic

    andic Member

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    IATF 16949 has a requirement that the organization ensures purchased products conform to purchase requirements, them having CoCs would be one way for them to prove it but they might do incoming inspections and that would also cover the requirement, but you cannot audit your supplier to that standard if they don't claim to meet it.

    Maybe you would be better off suggesting they look at how they ensure they are not wasting time and money on non-conforming incoming materials, not just the direct losses from staff and operators sorting it out and making complaints but also the wasted production time and impact on lead time if materials are not available when needed. If they buy into that philosophy you get a win win (sometimes bullying people into doing what you think is required by quoting clauses is counter productive)
     
  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I beg to differ. You can audit a supplier to whatever is agreed.
     
  11. andic

    andic Member

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    I suppose that's true, but hopefully if they agree to be audited on it they at least think they meet the requirements..... ;)

    Anyway if the supplier has agreed to an audit to IATF16949, purchasing requirements may be used to support his "finding", but I think a co-operative approach might be better all round.
     
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  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed. If it's not in the contractual arrangements, it ain't gonna happen!
     
  13. russell nugent

    russell nugent Active Member

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    I just think it is risky for a supplier with no testing capabilities not to ask for COC on a number of products they use ( 4 that make up our product ) but I do agree that supplier monitoring might be more effective . PPM or something similar would be more effective than a COC .
     
  14. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Are you thinking a "Certificate of Conformity"?
     
  15. russell nugent

    russell nugent Active Member

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    Yes , obviously COA would be better .
     
  16. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, I'm thinking that, unless there's an agreement in place, such as a Quality Control Plan or similar, a Certificate of Conformity is pretty much useless... (A CoA is usually for raw materials)