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Why are CB auditors still doing this?

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by Andy Nichols, Jun 22, 2021.

  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    A client had externally provided IATF 16949 Internal Auditor training, back in 2018. A CB auditor is questioning the "certification to train in IATF" this week...

    Don't the CB Operations management know their auditors are incompetent? Read the SI?
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Of course, the real joke is that IATF CB auditors get to question who did the auditor training and if those trainers are "certified" when, all around us, are companies which are making and (often) shipping poor quality products - all while flying an IATF flag out the front! We - Joe Public - never get to question the auditors' competencies, yet experience has shown they can look at a PFMEA etc and find the first 4 columns are messed up.
     
  3. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    Is the training accredited?
     
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, but I don't understand what that has to do with the situation. The accreditation is on the certificates. The facts are that in the very early days of IATF this was a common finding. I wrote to Cheri Reiche and asked her to stop this silliness and the Sanctioned Interpretation was released. It states the following:

    At a minimum, product auditors shall demonstrate competence in understanding product requirements and use of relevant measuring and test equipment to verify product conformity. If the organization’s personnel provide the training to achieve competency, documented information shall be retained to demonstrate the trainer’s competency with the above requirements. (The strike thru has been removed for clarity)
     
  5. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    Okay cool. Thanks! I hope the auditor doesn't write a nonconformity. If he/she does, I hope your client disputes it.
     
  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    It was part of a major. I doubt the client will dispute it. They will do what a majority of clients do, which is acquire training certificates and offer them an an appeasement to the NC. They fear retribution and avoid conflict. The CB doesn't closely review such non-conformities - as they are required to do - and reject it back to the auditor for being null and void. The auditor will continue to audit based on their crooked understanding of requirements and the statistics about certification will be false. Industry will spend thousands of dollars on chasing around doing the busy work of $500/day auditors who have zero clue.
     
  7. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    A major? On what grounds? It is a shame they will not dispute. It is needed, as far as I have seen, to get a NC overturned or edited; I don't know CB reviewers who will change an audit report unless that intervention is requested. I really do wish clients would push back more often.

    I don't know any IATF auditors who only get $500 a day. These days the fees for those specialties are quite a bit higher, but good luck prying the exact number out of CBs.
     
  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    It shouldn't be an issue even brought up! Customers don't understand the SI's or the need to visit the IAOB website to find out. Telling the customer there's a standard and then telling them to keep an eye on (constantly changing) requirements is bizarre. Auditors should know better and it's the CB's job to ensure this doesn't happen - not the customers job to keep the CB on the tracks.
     
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    CBs don't tell, but auditors do! As a contractor, you negotiate the rate you can get. No-one talks about that to "peers" (competitors)
     
  10. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    SIs?
     
  11. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    Hmmm, at which CBs do contract auditors negotiate their rates? Not the three I know of.
     
  12. RonR Quality Pro

    RonR Quality Pro Active Member

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    Jennifer Kirley likes this.