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Previous Minor now turned into major - single lapse problem

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by mlaloux, May 6, 2021.

  1. mlaloux

    mlaloux New Member

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    As a result of our recertification audit, the same non-conformity was detected as last years minor, which turned it into a major. However it was a single case (human error), so only detected in 1 case out of .... hundreds.
    So now, a second major was created: In accordance with Rules clause 5.11.5: "In cases where the accepted corrective action plan for a minor nonconformity is found to be not effectively implemented, a new major nonconformity shall be issued against the corrective action process (see IATF 16949, section 10.2) and the previous minor non-conformity reissued as a major nonconformity."

    Containment and systemic actions for the 1st major I'll manage, but I'm really struggling to define root cause and containment action for this second major.
    Does anyone have any experience and/or suggestion of what to do with this?
     
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Could you share a sanitized version, verbatim, of the non-conformity statement? That would help.
     
  3. mlaloux

    mlaloux New Member

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    Yes, here we go:
    MAJOR 1: (Minor - single lapse, problem was not found on other Control Plans or PFMEA's):
    Special characteristics notation not fully effective:
    For the Control Plan & PFMEA nrXXXX the special characteristics notation is not compatible - special characteristics diameter is identified on the control form in production but not on the Control Plan or PFMEA - this was already NC1 from 2020 - now Major.

    > we did establish a system to treat this NC from 2020 and it is in use. Only now, 1 person did not use the correct method for 1 part-FMEA and -CP. Since we can't use the human error as a rootcause we're thinking more to go towards a problem in with the multidisciplinary approach and validation (I must be honest and say that it's not perfect).

    MAJOR 2: in accordance with Rules clause 5.11.5: " In cases where ...... the previous minor non-conformity reissued as a major nonconformity.":
    Corrective actions NC1 from 2020 audit not effectively solved.
    Also, during the audit it was established that root cause analysis for NC's from internal audits is almost non existent.

    > I am not really OK with this last sentence. The auditor rushed through the file and did not see everything well (we only do rootcauseanalysis for NC's, not for OFI's).

    But now, how to define rootcause and containment?
     
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  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Have you done a 5 Why exercise with the people involved? Is that part of your own Problem Solving method? I need to know in case it's your Problem Solving Process which is really the cause - if you follow my meaning.

    I would also offer that this is a classic case of the use of internal audit to follow up on a corrective action, to validate the CA was effective.

    This may be an issue of "interpretation" and you should carefully review what your internal audit reporting model is doing to help avoid this in future. How do you report internal audits? Using non-conformities? Or something else? Let's not overlook that you are ALLOWED to simply correct non-conformities. To go out on a limb here, it might be the whole set up of your internal audits needs to be re-evaluated. Your audit program should be sensitive to these situations.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
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  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    And I agree! The CB auditors view everything through the optics of the third party. What I refer to as the "Iceberg Syndrome". Instead, the auditor should have viewed the CONTENT of the internal audit non-conformities and determined what action - correction or root cause - was appropriate/ Instead it's easier to treat it like an iceberg. "The ship hit it and is sinking"...
     
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  6. mlaloux

    mlaloux New Member

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    Thanks Andy for your reply.
    1. Yes we did a 5Why with the people involved. And we do use this in our problem solving, but not on in a structured way for everything (yes for customer complaints and internal defects, less OK for internal audit-NC's).

    2. Internal audits are reported with NC's and OFI's. We decided (and mentioned in our procedure) to only do rootcauseanalysis for NC's.

    I agree that we should improve this validation of CA / internal audit process. We will focus on this.

    In the meantime I talked to the auditor. He reassured me that I should not worry about rootcause of these 2 majors, since it's just a single-lapse documentation-error. There is no risk for the customer (since the production documentation and -controls were OK), so there are not really any containment actions for these single documentations errors.
    I just need to confirm that all members of the multisisciplinary are aware of this problem in top-documentation (p-FMEA and CP) and that implemenation of modifications and correction is ongoing.
     
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  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    For internal audits, might I suggest you stop doing this "grading"? It's a trap. It's based on external audit practices which have little/nothing to do with internal audits. It causes these kinds of problems of responses to audit issues. There's no need for grading. It should be obvious from the written report and - if you did the audit effectively - management's understanding of the issue your auditors revealed and the need for action. What are the criteria to guide everyone as to what an OFI vs an NC is? As with many others, experience shows that when you use grading of audit issues, you dig a hole for yourself.

    TBH, I'd be careful of any CB auditor who says what you should or shouldn't worry about. It's NOT their job to give such advice, the "rules" are there to do the exact opposite of his "advice" and clearly, he's not thinking the whole thing through correctly in a systematic manner. Again, based on experience, I do not trust the vast majority of CB auditors when they make such comments. Their motivations are all wrong.
     
  8. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

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    So the question is why wasn't the control plan and/or PFMEA updated? Or was this a new one? Seems to me the person doing the paperwork was "not competent" ie; inadequately trained and supervised, and didn't understand the correlation between the SC and the docs. Your containment might be to review any other docs they created to ensure no future issues.

    Now what chaps me, is that it sounds like you where actually doing everything you should have when you actually produced parts -- actually controlling and monitoring the special characteristic. The major, while required, seems non value added to me. Good luck.
     
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I saw a recent post on a (new) LinkedIn group, by a former colleague of mine: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6797687696153296896

    Rick talks about non-conformities being similar to common cause and treating them as special cause variation and how they just don't have a root cause. I know Rick well enough to know he's not talking nonsense, but has considered this aspect for a long time. This post is a great example of such an event - there may be no root cause and struggling to find one, by assigning competency or something else is futile...