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Has the Quality Profession become "Counter Cultural"?

Discussion in 'Other Quality and Business Related Topics' started by Andy Nichols, Apr 15, 2021.

  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    As many of us know, the Quality profession has helped move industry away from the era of "Quality By Inspection" and towards "Quality Assurance" and then "Quality Management Systems".
    I am struck however, that it seems that our Professional qualification route doesn't support this journey being taken by the industries we serve, instead regressing towards that of Inspection. By that I mean the plethora of training courses/providers and qualification grades centered on auditing (a form of inspection at its most basic). If we espouse prevention, shouldn't we have grades of "Lead QMS Implementer" or "QMS Strategist" as career qualifications?
     
  2. yodon

    yodon Well-Known Member

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    Such a heretic! ;-) In the medical device world (pretty much where I live), I do see job postings kind of along those lines - responsible for QMS implementation and continuous improvements. So maybe there are some inroads being made. You know what a bad teacher success is and, I think often, those rising to the top have a particular vision of "quality" in their organization that is likely old-school-thinking: more of a necessary evil than strategic. Training providers are going to offer what sells and so unless those controlling the purse-strings demand differently, not much hope of change there.
     
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I know! It seems like an (obvious) paradox that there's so much emphasis placed on the role of auditing and our on-line forums are full of questions about "what will the auditor expect" posts. It's simply reinforcing the behahiours that we've tried to modify - that of inspecting "quality" into the Management System. I feel rather more like the kid pointing out the Emperor's new clothes...
     
  4. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    What is this Quality profession entity supposed to do when top management perceives the professional's role as one of Referee?

    On the contrary, I have seen at least one multi-billion $ corporation espouse Lean as its road to success, while failing to address the bleeding of mantime and materials while personnel chase emergencies on the floor. It is an age-old problem but I have to stress that is has nothing to do with the Quality Profession.

    Every horse can reserve the right to die from thirst. Don't blame the pond for those who choose not to drink from it.
     
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Easy! Stop training people as referees! Of all the professional training available in Quality, there's just one: Auditor! Why is it that in the Information Security world, they have a professional qualification called "Lead Implementer"? I believe they "get it"...
     
  6. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    Maybe they get it, news of ransomware attacks on small governments and school districts notwithstanding, but what is wrong with taking an internal objective view of how things are working together? This is the most challenging part. Few understand it and fewer yet support it. Maybe that's why the auditing qualifications look the way they do.

    You said "If we espouse prevention" which I think is at the heart of it because managers will say "But we can't prevent everything" or "It's too expensive, our shareholders would never support it" or some other lame excuse. When, as an internal auditor I pointed out that the PM system allowed PMs to be shut off when an unrelated repair was made, resulting not only in the PMs not getting done but never scheduled again because the scheduling was done based on PM completion, there was shock but not from everybody. Some knew it was possible and could be happening but had not run the reports to highlight the issue and top management was invested in using the production software for PMs that was very difficult to patch for this. In another case, the internal auditor (me) found that a new, much-touted process had been implemented and signed off - award given to the project leader - and the PMs had not been set up at all. When I confronted the responsible equipment manager about it, he was defensive.

    As long as that sort of thing goes on we will still need management systems inspection.

    I believe "Lead QMS Implementer" or "QMS Strategist" would be considered the Quality Manager function.
     
  7. Eric Twiname

    Eric Twiname Well-Known Member

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    IMO, the term "Quality" has run its course just like the terms TQM, MBWA, Lean, etc.
    Also IMO, it should not have been an adjective in the first place but should have stayed a noun...the change it was made it a short-term buzzword.

    Effectiveness, Logical, Profitable...that's what Top Management wants (I am top management, that's what I want).

    I will take "Effective business system" over QMS any day of the week...even if they are the exact same thing (which in my experience they often are).

    I suggest the field stop talking about "Quality systems" and start talking about enabling profitable business realization (even though they are often the same thing).
    The word "Quality" has been used, misused and shattered beyond usefulness and now has a negative connotation.

    My products have high quality. (a noun, measured after product realization)
    My business systems are efficient and effective and logical. (adjectives, measured prior to product realization)
    I will pay for someone who can increase my effectiveness and efficiency, I will not pay for a "quality engineer"...and I'll want to fire anyone who uses the word Ishikawa again in my presence.

    It isn't the thing, its the words that are hurting...

    My two cents...have at ...
     
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  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, but how does a professional attain a recognized qualification?
     
  9. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    There is the certification for Quality Manager/Organizational Excellence, which is well rounded in the general components of the QMS. An individual's ability to implement a QMS is more specialized in terms of project management. Not everyone can, or should try this and the lack of specific certifications (there could be a college degree out there I don't know about) is possibly based on the relative few slots for this specialty as compared to people who manage existing systems.
     
  10. Eric Twiname

    Eric Twiname Well-Known Member

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    FWIW...I hope it's worth something in this thread...that (after all) is why I post...

    I would hire a "Project Manager" over a "Quality Manager/Organizational Excellence" any day of the week. One connotates a limited skillset, the other connotates a useful employee for multiple projects.
    It's the wording, and the individual's recognition that wording matters...more the latter than the former...
     
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  11. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I draw a simple analogy: If we consider the design, manufacture and inspection/testing of a product, a quality system design, implementation and auditing is comparable. Unlike the product world, where people attain qualifications in product design, process engineering etc. the QMS world has ONLY auditing. We all know that an effective QMS has to first be designed, then it has to be implemented as designed and then audited to independently verified/validated. We all know that an effective QMS has to first be designed, then it has to be implemented as designed and then audited to independently verified/validated. My question is "Where is the QMS Design/Implementation" professional qualification route? It's not difficult to describe. We have the ability to conjure the key areas of knowledge/skills a person should possess.
     
  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    You can try, but I'm not holding my breath on that one. We've been banging on about changing the name on the standard for years. It hasn't happened.
     
  13. Eric Twiname

    Eric Twiname Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, and it won't be me trying...I don't work in the quality profession...so it isn't hurting me. My main interaction with the "Quality field" is playing defense against silly things I'm told to do.
     
  14. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    Does this mean there should be a certification for people who do what you do?
     
  15. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    As in, am I certifiable? Yes, is the answer! :D
     
  16. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Seriously, though, the answer is absolutely! Being a Lead Auditor is of zero benefit to me (in spite of me having that qualification). My clients have no clue what it means. They don't need someone who can "inspect" the product, they need help with the design aspects, the compliance requirements etc. Without that, the rest is a wash...
     
  17. Eric Twiname

    Eric Twiname Well-Known Member

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    How do you describe your talents and services in language that they DO know what it means? (Sorta where I was going with removing the word "Quality".)

    Example: I offered service to one of my vendors...they have 6 people in shipping with mountains of papers everywhere and a line of truckers waiting (cursing) for their loads to be put in the trucks.
    On a single piece of paper, I sketched out a system for him that would have loads waiting for truckers, paperwork minimized and complete before the truckers showed up...all run by a single person (entry level) and the costing showing investment payback within 3months. Nowhere in there did I reference "QMS", "Lean" or any other buzzwords...I offered to do the job for 100K, and track cost savings by a mutually agreed method, and give him the money back if I couldn't prove by said method that as a direct result he cut direct cost by 1000K in a single year.

    He asked what I would need to do up front and I told him I would start by reviewing his processes and quality system in the shipping department to design a transition plan...the conversation ended immediately upon the word "quality". (They are ISO9001:2015). If I had said I would review how they organized the processes around shipping and meet with the employees I would have a better vendor and $100K.
     
  18. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Good question. That's part of the sales/marketing approach. No-one I know is hiring based on a title. It's what is described in the SLA/Proposal. Much as you did in the sketching out the system, but not in your description. That's where effective sales technique comes in.
     
  19. Eric Twiname

    Eric Twiname Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Certs don't help there.
     
  20. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    I have supported such an idea 20 years ago, and proposed to the USDA Small Business Innovative Research program that increasing skill levels, consistency and reliability in consultants would benefit the small business community that has no clear way of knowing what they are signing up for when they hire someone to develop their QMS.