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Internal audits

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Manish Sawant, May 23, 2016.

  1. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    The Quality Group also do auditor training. TBH I'm always a little less than enthusiastic when Registrars offer training - sometimes their viewpoint is "rose colored" by their 3rd party perspective. Today, I heard all kinds of stories from a client who had been told, by a Registrar auditor, that ISO 9001:2015 required this, that and something else, most of which was horribly wrong. If the Registrar allows those kinds of auditors out, what is their client auditor training like? Just a thought...
     
  2. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Some of the horrible interpretations I've personally encountered with registrars/CB:
    • Corrective actions must be closed out during management reviews;
    • Safety supervisor cannot be part of the team that audits a site with OHS requirements as part of the audit criteria;
    • non-achievement of targets (e.g. 8% achievement against 10% energy reduction target) is a nonconformity;
    • monitoring of emission of back-up generator set must be done internally although an external laboratory conducts quarterly emission testing. The auditor even required the use of a Ringelmann chart by the company's maintenance personnel;
    • outline of the minutes of meeting on management reviews must match the letters of clause 9.3.2a to f, including the subnumbers of 9.3.2c;
    • Quality Manual for ISO/TS 16949 does not match the clauses of the standard (i.e. "The QM doesn't have provisions on layout inspection, measurement system analysis, internal laboratory, premium freight, manufacturing process and product audits, etc.);
    • risks must be identified for the established quality objectives;
    • because a company has achieved its set targets for 2 consecutive years without adjusting for a more challenging level, the auditor recommends to issue a Major NC.
    and the list goes on and on...:mad:
     
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed, Tony!
     
  4. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    I do agree, but it is an option (just not necessarily the best one). There are times, however, when circumstances may warrant this option - financial resources, timing, etc. Just because it is not, at first glance, the best option, does mean it should be discounted. ... ... ... Plus, it could be used to help make a more expensive option look a bit more palatable. ;)

    And, to be fair, there are some non-registrar training options out there from which many of us have heard horror stories. Always pros and cons for the training method/provider selected.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
  5. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    Having a Bachelors in Technical Education and a fair amount of experience in delivering it, I am of course very discriminating about training and competency building.

    I have seen the best, and the worst training developed and delivered by (various) registrars. I've taken three different accredited Lead Auditor courses over the years for various standards, and delivered three non-accredited sessions via a 4th registrar. The differences explain that it isn't about being offered by a registrar. What marks them apart is the program development and execution, carried out in accordance with industry standards and monitored for continuing conformance to expectations. Without that, one can expect a good deal of variation and very possibly a disaster. Such is what gives us a bad name in industry. That is why I often steer people away from nonaccredited courses.

    I can't speak for the experiences described earlier in this thread because I wasn't there; I only have my own emotionally scarred examples (there is a reason I have refused to continue with my people in this past year, but now do training on my own). All I can offer is that such things are the reason why the accreditation process tries to bring accuracy and consistency to the product and delivery. I can't vouch it is always done, or always done well. Maybe one day I can get work as an accreditation auditor for these classes, so I can help in some way. Until then, I just want to offer that it is not about who is offering the class; it is about what they put into the program. Regretfully the customer has little to no way to know the quality they are paying for, up to and sometimes even after they finish. It's a shark tank out there.
     
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  6. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    My experiences of accreditation were not exciting! We were written ncs for "not sequentially numbering slides" and "using too many English expressions" (the course was written by an American from NC) during a desk audit of a LA course submitted for review by an AB.

    I had an ISO/IEC 17025 LA course audited, by an auditor who didn't have "lab" in their resume. They arrived late on the first day, wrote ncs for (administrative) materials which didn't reflect the latest AB details (he could have done that at home and were nothing to do with the course delivery) and for not sticking to the timing on the first day (I told him, we'd over-run a few minutes).
     
  7. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    I can't vouch that the accreditation process is perfect - heaven knows I have heard plenty of horror stories regarding who shows up and how they behave.

    I can vouch that my experience has shown the classes were substantially different. The accredited classes, by virtue of even having to get the approval in the first place, offered more robust curricula and testing methods than the nonaccredited registrar offerings. That said, I don't go around sampling training classes by any given consultant. I merely point out that I expect more variation in the nonaccredited classes.
     
  8. The PPAP Assassin

    The PPAP Assassin Active Member

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    This gives me nightmares of a previous life :eek: Try as hard as you can to get out of automotive and TS! You'll thank me later.. As a quality manager, we have tons of options. I get 3-4 calls a week from recruiters/ different companies trying to hire me. Be selective! Basic manufacturing with an ISO cert is perfect. Automotive is nothing but headaches and stress! I've been there! Good luck man.
     
  9. Chris55

    Chris55 Member

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    Audit can be conducted by qualified internal auditor. The best thing thing go with Internal Auditor training, it will take only 1 weeks or hiring the ISO Consultants or Certification Body. They will help you implement ISO Standard in your place.

    6 Mandatory procedures for ISO 9001
    1. Control of Documents (4.2.3)
    2. Control of Records (4.2.4)
    3. Internal Audits (8.2.2)
    4. Control of Non-Conforming Products (8.3)
    5. Corrective Action (8.5.2)
    6. Preventive Action (8.5.3)
     
  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    The mandatory procedures apply to the obsolete 2008 standard, not 2015. Internal auditor training doesn't take a week - some accredited courses are 3 days. The Certification Body MUST NOT help with implementation.
     
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