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Quality Procedures and Signatures

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2008 - Quality Management Systems' started by Brian Chandler, Aug 4, 2016.

  1. Brian Chandler

    Brian Chandler New Member

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    Hello all,

    I am new to the Quality world as of last year and found this site very helpful in the past so I thought id come back now that I have some experience and questions. We have grown a lot and I fear the old way we have does not work well nor is it efficient.

    Question 1. Signatures

    In addition to the document owner and the approved by sections we have a "trainee" section for each procedure who signs off on each respected procedure. This means, we have 20 "floor guys" (30 in another location) singing off on each procedures they are held accountable for. Is this normal to gather signatures? Is there another way to go about this and still show they have read and agreed to those procedures?

    Question 2 : Internal Auditors

    We have opened up another location across the country and I would like someone in that facility to do internal audits. What training and/or certificates does he need to be able to do this? The standards says we need show evidence that the auditor is competent but says nothing about certificates etc etc.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2016
    Brian Chandler, Aug 4, 2016
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  2. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

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    It's probably easier for smaller companies to collect and maintain signatures. For larger organizations, electronic signatures can be used. It also depend, I suppose, on how they're being trained. Face to face, classroom training would probably lead to signatures whereas reading documents online could use an email acceptance as a signature (if the employees have email).

    In the world of ISO 9001, your organization can determine the competency requirements/methodology for your internal auditor. You could do the training yourself if you feel comfortable doing that and find a way to assess/develop the new auditor's training needs.
     
    RoxaneB, Aug 5, 2016
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  3. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Not sure. But if your intent is to ensure that new hires are adequately inducted/oriented, there are other more effective ways than just letting people sign on their documented procedures.
    Why do you need to show that people have agreed and read their procedures. There's no requirement for that.
     
    tony s, Aug 6, 2016
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  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    As with "rubber checks" people sign off on stuff that has no meaning. Don't waste space/time. Get people to demonstrate their competency. Signing documents never means much, IMHO. Even digitally, how many "click" on a software agreement without reading it? Honestly?
     
    Andy Nichols, Aug 6, 2016
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  5. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    1) Signatures are useful for indicating a required transfer of information was achieved, mostly in regulated industries or when the customer requires it.

    For competency, however a signature is worthless as a person can say "Yes I read it" but not understand or perform properly.

    2) I would recommend a site's principal or lead auditor to get Lead Auditor training in the applicable standard. Even then one should have practice in order to demonstrate competency.
     
    Jennifer Kirley, Aug 7, 2016
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  6. ncwalker

    ncwalker Well-Known Member

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    Every time I see this executed well, the company has employed a pay for knowledge system. Employee pay is tied to how many tasks they can demonstrate competency in, not time in the seat. But it is also a HUGE, HUGE undertaking. One has to have an HR department sized to adequately administer it.

    I have also see it executed well where the supervisors do the signing, not the employees. I have seen places where the tasks a floor guy is supposed to be able to perform are part of their ID badge. (Yes, it limits how many tasks they can do). And a supervisor initials the block when they are trained.

    But I do agree with the sentiments of the signatures not meaning much. We have a lot of corporate training and we just say "yeah, we read it." Good analogy above with the EULA.

    So - not an answer, but some things to get you thinking.
     
    ncwalker, Aug 8, 2016
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