1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

DOCUMENTS SEQUENCE

Discussion in 'IATF 16949:2016 - Automotive Quality Systems' started by Mukesh Sharma, Jan 27, 2016.

  1. Mukesh Sharma

    Mukesh Sharma Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2015
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    India
    Hello

    Can somebody help me to link my documentations?
    According to me the sequence is STANDARD+QUALITY MANUAL+PROCEDURES+FORMATS.
     
    Mukesh Sharma, Jan 27, 2016
    #1
  2. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    926
    Likes Received:
    1,081
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    By FORMATS, do you mean forms (i.e., documents that are completed and become records of evidence)?

    What about work instructions? Some organizations also control job aids or one-point lessons.

    I am curious what you are trying to accomplish with this sequence.
     
    RoxaneB, Jan 27, 2016
    #2
    Mukesh Sharma likes this.
  3. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Since this is asked in the ISO/TS forum, aren't you also forgetting control plans? This "sequence" you refer to is out of date and old fashioned. There are more effective ways to document a management system than forcing documents into an artificial structure - the standard doesn't refer to these levels of documents anymore, either.
     
    Andy Nichols, Jan 27, 2016
    #3
    Mukesh Sharma likes this.
  4. Mukesh Sharma

    Mukesh Sharma Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2015
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    India
    well. we are automotive manufacturer and at every stage we use documents and records every thing.
    but the last time when my CB doing audit then he said your documents doesn't referenced and correlated with your Quality Manual.
    and now after one month he'll again come for audit. And this time i want to correct all the thing in right way. Even my organization hire a consultant but he is only ISO approved not TS.
    At the last now i want some idea or exposure that how can i move forward with this.
     
    Mukesh Sharma, Jan 28, 2016
    #4
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Was this a non-conformity? How exactly was this worded or reported, if not an NC? It is important to have some cross-reference from the manual, it's true.
    Consultants aren't "ISO approved" or "TS approved". They either know about management systems or they don't! If your quality manual (under ISO/TS 16949 AND ISO 9001) doesn't reference your procedures it should - it's been a requirement of ISO 9001 since 2008! Did your consultant write/approve your manual? If so, you might want to change your consultant and find someone who knows the basics!
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
    Andy Nichols, Jan 28, 2016
    #5
    Mukesh Sharma likes this.
  6. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    926
    Likes Received:
    1,081
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Ah, the good ol' days when I used to have a Quality Manual. <- FYI, that was sarcasm. I don't miss my Quality Manual. :p

    But when I did have one, it did reference, as a minimum, the procedures required by the Standard. It did not reference every single procedure, work instruction and form in our system. It did, however, outline our basic document structure and then we demonstrated our document control system where everything was housed (i.e., created, retained, approved, released, reviewed, modified, rendered obsolete).
     
    RoxaneB, Jan 28, 2016
    #6
    Mukesh Sharma and Andy Nichols like this.
  7. Mukesh Sharma

    Mukesh Sharma Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2015
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    India
    No he doesn't mark it NC but at every stage he said correlate your documents.
    And about the consultant he works under the ISO CB i don't think that he has any exposure about TS.
    Because he give us a Quality Manual and referenced some procedures but the document no. doesn't match with the manual & standard.
    I read the whole Standard but i don't know why he do not guide us as per standard.
     
    Mukesh Sharma, Jan 29, 2016
    #7
  8. RoxaneB

    RoxaneB Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    926
    Likes Received:
    1,081
    Trophy Points:
    92
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    If he is not guiding your organization in a way that you are comfortable with, it could be he does not truly understand the standard or there is a communication issue from either site. Sometimes we need to ask the right question in order to receive the right answer.

    In a Quality Manual, an example of a typical format is:

    [Section Number] - [Section Title]

    [Organization Name] .... repeat standard requirements (although good organizations will re-word this into their own organizational language).

    References:
    SOP-### | [Document Name]
    WI - ### | [Document Name]

    So...

    8.4 - Corrective Action

    RoxaneB's Manufacturer of Fine Quality Manuals has developed and implemented a corrective action system to successfully resolve identified and applicable nonconformance (refer to Section 8.3 of this Manual) ... more text here.

    References:
    SOP-123 | Corrective Action Procedure
    WI-987 | Corrective Action Processing

    Please note that the above was an example and by no means the only correct way to document or reference supporting documentation.
     
    RoxaneB, Jan 29, 2016
    #8
    MCW8888 and Mukesh Sharma like this.
  9. Golfman25

    Golfman25 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    405
    Trophy Points:
    62
    I'm not sure what the question really is. Your flow seems reasonable. And as Roxane points out many of us refer from the quality manual. In our case, our quality manual consists of a matrix which outlines each clause of the standard and which procedure the particular requirement is handled. The procedure then refers to any forms which are used to document the results. In most cases it is quite obvious by the title of the form - i.e.; supplier development record obviously ties to the supplier development procedure.

    If your organization hired a consultant, what does he say? Are you getting any value from the person?
     
    Golfman25, Jan 29, 2016
    #9
  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    In which case he needs to decide, it's either an nc or not. Just to keep saying it doesn't make him correct...

    Is this a CB auditor or a consultant who also does work as a CB auditor? I'm confused. Is he a consultant and works for a CB? Is your CB accredited by an IAF member? If so, consultants CANNOT work for a CB! If he's not familiar with TS (and this isn't a TS specific requirement) then you don't need him.
     
    Andy Nichols, Jan 29, 2016
    #10
    Mukesh Sharma likes this.
  11. Mukesh Sharma

    Mukesh Sharma Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2015
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    2
    Location:
    India
    Thanks to all for sharing your experience with me i learn lots of things.
     
    Mukesh Sharma, Jan 30, 2016
    #11
  12. MCW8888

    MCW8888 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Messages:
    642
    Likes Received:
    198
    Trophy Points:
    42
    If I can read your auditor's mind, if he is auditing the Quality Manual at the very end of the manual he may be looking for a topic called REFERENCE. And the auditor did not see any objective evidence. So you need to comply with section 4.2.2b. We have had no problem with this in our stage 1 audits because when we described 4.2.1c, we made reference to the master list of documents and records. It's nice to have all the numbering systems, but we let our Admin do that. The title is important. Hope this helps.
     
    MCW8888, Jan 30, 2016
    #12
    Mukesh Sharma likes this.