1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
Dismiss Notice
You must be a registered member in order to post messages and view/download attached files in this forum.
Click here to register.

Legal right of Quality Auditor to view Full Board of Directors minutes?

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by wessex, Mar 10, 2021.

  1. wessex

    wessex Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Hi where is it written down in the UK that it is a legal right for a "Quality Auditor" to see the FULL Board of Directors meeting minutes? I have always shown an "extract" of where they have discussed "QHSE " related issues!


    Surely this is suffice?


    They dont have a legal right to view the Company Directors "full " Board of Directors meeting minutes"? Only HMRC, Finance Auditor, Enforcement Authority etc etc.. Not an external Quality Auditor, as there may be Company business which they may not wish to share to third parties?


    Anyone got the correct legal or other wording on this for the Board please?


    Many thanks
     
    wessex, Mar 10, 2021
    #1
  2. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Can we clarify a few things? When you say "Quality Auditor" who are we discussing here? Also, when you say "where is it written down?" are you referring to some requirements in ISO 9001:2015? Are you referring to the ISO 9001:2015 requirement for "retained documented information" regarding Management Review of the quality management system?
     
    Andy Nichols, Mar 10, 2021
    #2
  3. wessex

    wessex Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Andy - I think I have the answer - External Quality auditors do not have a legal right to see the Full Board minutes only enforcement authorities and financial auditors in the uk..

    I have always presented an extract of where the Board have discussed QHSE issues.

    I dont wish to show information on "other" Board discussions that should not be seen out side of the company.

    Just found it a bit of a weird request !!!

    I think I saw another thread you had said if you feel its not right or uncomfortable etc ask the auditor to leave !!!! does that apply to the current situation of remote audits ? Presenting over Teams ??
     
    wessex, Mar 10, 2021
    #3
  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Not knowing how your Quality Management System is structured, it's worth checking on what's been documented as the way your organization has decided to meet the ISO 9001 requirements. Are you certain the auditor isn't using your own requirements to audit? This is perfectly legitimate. It's the equivalent in QMS terms of shooting yourself in the foot. I encountered a very similar situation in the UK when auditing a company and they had copied and pasted right out of the standard into their procedure. Initially, it was debated as "interpretation, so I found where they had documented the exact same requirements - which they didn't comply with!

    TBH - I don't know why a BoD would come even close to doing what's required to meet the ISO 9001 Management Review requirements. I can't imagine they get much out of such a review. When is it done? Once a year? Twice?
     
    Andy Nichols, Mar 10, 2021
    #4
  5. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Also, I note you asked the same/similar question at the Cove and replied to my friend Cari in this manner "i dont understand your question ! no the external audit are requesting information - something I havent been asked before..."

    Does this mean you have never been asked because you weren't at the company or that a CB auditor has never asked? What has been presented as records of Management Review, previously?
     
    Andy Nichols, Mar 10, 2021
    #5
  6. wessex

    wessex Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Andy - I am at a different company now, different auditor and different audit company !!! UKAS accredited just never been asked this before !! Im going to give an extract and see what he says !!!
     
    wessex, Mar 11, 2021
    #6
  7. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    What was shown to the auditor in the past? As I mentioned previously binding board records to Management Review records seems a little unusual to me. That may be the bigger issue here, not the auditor.
     
    Andy Nichols, Mar 11, 2021
    #7
  8. wessex

    wessex Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Andy I have always shown "exerts" / "snapshots".. company proprietary rights / etc etc only to legal or Enforcement or HMRC.. ISo auditors do noit have a given right !! ISO is not a legal entity .. The ISO 9001 is not a legal requirement. Although recognized as important in many industries, companies may operate without the certification. This certification does help in maintaining many legal requirements that companies face to ensure quality, but the standard itself is not required. !!! I dont understand why some people get a bit hot under the collar about why they think ISO is the bees knees !! Big Billionaire Companies like Exxon Mobil dont have it !! others say its a must have it to win a contract ! I spoke to a medium size company last week and they are in the same mind set as Exxon Mobil, they have a letter signed off to say that they follow in the "spirit", and dont spend money on ISO's.. its big money, more so now as the Accreditation Organisations just doing remote audits

    lets leave it there
     
    wessex, Mar 12, 2021
    #8
  9. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2015
    Messages:
    5,104
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Location:
    In the "Rust Belt"
    Yes, I'm fully familiar with the market (BTW it's "certification", not "accreditation"). Of course, (large) purchasing organizations don't employ certified Quality Management. Their customers don't care. That was never the intention for certification (don't mix ISO 9001 and certification in any discussion, they are NOT the same thing). If a company claims to be ISO 9001 compliant, good for them. If their customers care, great.

    For the vast majority of lower tier suppliers, ISO 9001 compliance and certification is infinitely more acceptable than a) purchasing organizations having to do "supplier development" (costly) and b) multiple customer audits on one supplier (costly). It's way off being perfect, but the alternative is worse, trust me.
     
    Andy Nichols, Mar 12, 2021
    #9