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Application of Clause 8.5.1 control Production and service Provision

Discussion in 'ISO 9001:2015 - Quality Management Systems' started by Padym, Apr 18, 2016.

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  1. Padym

    Padym Active Member

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    Can't the requirements under this sub-clause be applied to even Sales process or support process like HR, purchase as I think even these process should be controlled for the provision of services they provide and end-users being internal customers of the organisation?

    Or should it applied only for those processes who deals with the fulfilment of customer orders (in IT Technology or Service industry it could be an infrastructure delivery, Managed services, support team)
     
    Padym, Apr 18, 2016
    #1
  2. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    Process controls should be applied anywhere risk is identified and targeted for reduction or elimination. While it is true that the main focus is customer satisfaction, support processes like HR can also have very important functions and should be planned and performed to minimize waste so as to help get it done. Let us consider the requirement for knowledge management and the Notes encouraging us to consider factors in the work environment that can impede people from performing as well as we are able.

    Sales is also critically important as it is the process in which customer interface happens. Poor record keeping, slow return calls, lack of interpersonal skills and other issues might cause or contribute to loss of sales.
     
    Jennifer Kirley, Apr 18, 2016
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  3. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Definitely YES. Below are examples of processes where the letters of the 8.5.1 subclause are applicable:
    Human Resource Management - a2, b, d, e, and g;
    IT (system/application development) - a1, a2, b, c, d, e, f, g and h;
    Equipment Maintenance - a2, b, d, e, f, g and h;
    Finance and Accounting - a2, b, d, e, and g.​
     
    tony s, Apr 20, 2016
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  4. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Since ISO 9001 is about the quality of product, the "Production" part of the clause name means the process(es) applicable to the product. Sure you could apply the controls to other process (non-product) but that's a bridge too far for most...
     
    Andy Nichols, Apr 20, 2016
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  5. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Actually, most (if not all) of the requirements within 8.5.1 are just reiteration of the requirements in other clauses of ISO 9001:2015. For example:
    • 8.5.1a - is a reiteration of 4.4.2;
    • 8.5.1b - is a reiteration of 7.1.5.1;
    • 8.5.1c - is a reiteration of 4.4.1c, 9.1.1;
    • 8.5.1d - is a reiteration of 7.1.3, 7.1.4;
    • 8.5.1e - is a reiteration of 7.2;
    • 8.5.1f - is more specific to 8.5.1 but related to 8.3.2c, 8.3.4d, 8.3.4e, 8.4.3f;
    • 8.5.1g - is an RBT action and not only limited to 8.5.1 but also covered in 6.1.1c, 7.1.4, 10.1b;
    • 8.5.1h - is also covered in 8.2.3.1a, 8.5.5
     
    tony s, Apr 21, 2016
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  6. Paul Simpson

    Paul Simpson Member

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    There's a lot of sense in the posts above. I'd just make the point that, while there is duplication and overlap across the clauses of 9001, the secret to implementing the QMS is not to get down 'into the weeds' of individual requirements but keep the big picture in mind:

    How do we manage what we do to give the customer what we have promised or what they have asked for?

    If we can do that then all the process requirements will be met.

    Hope this helps.
     
    Paul Simpson, Apr 21, 2016
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  7. Qualmx

    Qualmx Well-Known Member

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    Tony
    Tony’s when auditing both clauses, in reiteration, you check both or just one?
    If one is non compliant , of course the other as well? Or just raise the nc in one?
    Please explain
     
    Qualmx, May 14, 2019
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  8. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Reporting is not about clauses. It's about management systems and/or processes. Once you consider what the part of the system (or process) is the issue, then the clause follows.
     
    Andy Nichols, May 14, 2019
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  9. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    I believe I've already answered this type of question in post#11 of this thread.
     
    tony s, May 14, 2019
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  10. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Huh?
     
    Andy Nichols, May 14, 2019
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  11. tony s

    tony s Well-Known Member

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    Isn't the Scope section clarified the intention of the requirements of the standard? See below:

    1 Scope
    This International Standard specifies requirements for a quality management system when an
    organization:
    a) needs to demonstrate its ability to consistently provide products and services that meet customer
    and applicable statutory and regulatory requirements, and
    b) aims to enhance customer satisfaction through the effective application of the system, including
    processes for improvement of the system and the assurance of conformity to customer and applicable
    statutory and regulatory requirements.    ​

    The intended outcomes of implementing a QMS using the ISO 9001 standard are also illustrated in this figure:
    upload_2019-5-15_6-42-3.png
     
    tony s, May 14, 2019
    #11
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  12. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    It's really worrying to me that someone who professes to audit client's Quality Management Systems for the purposes of Third Party Certification doesn't understand a fundamental concept like this! "Quality" is "meeting requirements", which must include those of the product or service being delivered.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
    Andy Nichols, May 15, 2019
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  13. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Huh? Surely, one is inextricably linked to the other. Or was I dreaming bad stuff?
     
    Andy Nichols, May 15, 2019
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  14. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't understand the line of thought here...

    Who said anything about claiming a Product is ISO 9001 certified? I can't see any post mentioning it that, except yours. Nobody else has asserted this. Let's close this thread for fear of another endless debate...
     
    Andy Nichols, May 15, 2019
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  15. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not certain I understand your comment.
     
    Andy Nichols, May 16, 2019
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  16. johnnymo77

    johnnymo77 Active Member

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    I don't see them as reiterations. I see section 8 as the culmination of sections 4, 5, 6 and 7. It's putting context, leadership, planning and support into action to make products.
     
    johnnymo77, May 16, 2019
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  17. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Apparently not. You think it is, but that's only half the discussion isn't it? As an (claimed) auditor you know the origins of the word "audit" don't you?
     
    Andy Nichols, May 16, 2019
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  18. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm guessing you haven't worked in the auto industry...
     
    Andy Nichols, May 16, 2019
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  19. Andy Nichols

    Andy Nichols Moderator Staff Member

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    Are you sure? Got any references to any GM requirements which state that?
    Huh? Care to explain?
    Really? Any authoritative references you can cite?
     
    Andy Nichols, May 16, 2019
    #19
  20. Jennifer Kirley

    Jennifer Kirley Moderator Staff Member

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    No one has tried telling me they do not need to do any inspection. Clause 8.1b and 8.1d apply, as do 8.5.1(all); I would ask how they control their conditions and review their demonstration of conformance with great interest.
     
    Jennifer Kirley, May 17, 2019
    #20
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