4.3.1- scope: off-site (remote) sales center

Good evening all. I hope you are all well and having a happy new year;
I would like this group's professional input on a specific question.

I have an organization that receives their new business/sales input from an off-site corporate location that is not (nor does it intend to be) IATF 16949 certified nor ISO 9001:2015 registered.
As you are all aware, 16949 clause 4.3.1 states "...on site or remote, ...shall be included in the scope of the QMS". As you also know, ISO 9000:2015 does not imply "sales office", etc.. in the definitions it gives of "external provider" (provider). Additionally, "outsource" stipulates (note: 1) that it is intended to be outside of the QMS scope.
Based on the multiple and varying interpretations I've received, I'm having difficulty advising them objectively.

I would like to ask this group....

-How do you all recommend they include their remote sales office in the scope of their QMS?-

Thank you in advance.

 

Thank you for the feedback @Andy Nichols . While I agree with you in regards to some of the "odd" and contradicting approaches applied by the IATF, ( I certainly agree with you and have had significant experience in regards to excluding design centers. Don't get me started !), I don't see any option in the standard (4.3.1) to consider or allow for ..."...simply depends on what "sales" does."

The standard, as you know, uses quite strong and objective language (4.3.1) i.e. "Supporting functions...shall be included in the scope..." [ and , therefore, subject to "...form part of the site audit..." (ref :2009) ]

 

I believe you may have meant to say "...the manufacturing site is probable where the actual..." Am I correct Andy?

 

You need to document process and show where is located activity performed by supporting site.
Address it in your quality manual and cover by plan of internal audit of this process.
Third party audit will also cover it during certification/surveillance audits.

If supporting activity is covered by QMS of other manufacturing site, you can use their internal audits of this supporting activity, but then you are required to address internal audits as another supporting activity in your quality manual.

Generally supporting activities are very poorly managed by certified organizations. Some interfaces are not addressed in quality manuals, not audited internally and by CB. IATF should put more focus on it.

 

I do not know their sales process, but as long they do "something" outside it has to be covered by their system.
If it is nothing, so I do not see a point why they could not do it by themselves and save some money and risk, which is very often related to sales activities.
In my experience I have not seen any organization "feeling safe" knowing what their sales members are doing.

This "unnecessary job" I've suggested is much cheaper than excusing auditor why there is no word about remote support and fixing problems arising from potentially not worth mentioning activities, which were not monitored.

 

I wont go so far, when there is no system process flow chart identifying remote supporting activity.
President of company I work for said one day, he has received customer's complaint, that we are late with offer submissions. It might be an only job of externally located unit.

I am a simple poor serious man, who is trying to avoid posting advice, which may bring readers to risk of getting nonconformity.